Bad Scouting Signs

So, I am probably going to get a bunch of **** for this and probably someone will say it is because I live in California, but I enjoy seeing predators when I am out hunting. I have run across a number of mountain lions and a lot of coyotes over my life time of hunting. I have been within 20 feet of a coyote that did not even know I was there. I watched him for 10 minutes while he checked out ground squirrels that he was going down to hunt for the evening while I was deer hunting over the same canyon he was hunting in. I figured the best that could happen is he would possibly kick up a deer that was in the brush down in the canyon. I thought that experience was pretty cool.

I have no issue with people shooting mountain lions or wolves when getting tags for them but I also think that predators play an important role in the eco-system. Most of the time the predator (mountian lions, wolves and coyotes) keep the rodents and other small critters in check and do take the weaker larger animals. Before the white man showed up in North America there were huge herds of animals and lots of predators. It seems to me that we are harder on animal populations than predators are. Predators will self regulate where people tend not to. I hear other hunters in the area complain about seeing mountain lions and blame them for wiping out the deer population. I have always filled my tags even when there is a bunch of mountain lion sightings in the same area I am hunting in.

Lastly, with all the pictures that I enjoy looking at on this sight I am surprised at the major negativity to seeing predators. I do not always think that just because you see predators while out that they need to be dropped and that if you do not take care of that predator it is going to ruin your hunting season. I especially do not think it is worth the possible fines and loosing my hunting rights if you were to get caught. Never know who is watching. Now if we were a bunch of ranchers trying to make a living raising sheep I may see your point that predators are going to destroy your life. Probably all of the other hunters going out and hunting in the same area as you have a bigger detriment to your hunting than the predators do.

Just my 2 cents.

Sherman
 
Case and point=they should have transplanted wolves and grizzlies to DC and California :rolleyes: I grew up with wolves in upper Mn but the difference was you herd tham but very seldom saw them. Protecting these preditors has allowed them to become much bolder and less respectfull of humans.
 
Another thing to consider, the mountain lions and coyotes you are seeing while hunting in California are indigineous to the area. The wolves everyone in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming and bordering states are seeing are not the ones that were originally in the area. These are northern Canadian timber wolves, they are much larger than the original species and are therefore predators that are much more powerful killers.

In addition, I also believe that indigineous predators (coyotes, mountain lions, bears, etc) need to be controlled as well. Without this population control, predators can either loose there fear of humans and become dangerous or develop a population that is too great for the resources in that area to maintain and either switch to domestic prey or die in more brutal ways than a bullet would do.
 
SES50,

I try to be respectful of everyones opinion as they have the right to what ever they want to think. My problem lies in the fact that when others use their opinions to effect my life when those people have no idea what their opinions will do in the long run.

I also do not understand the fasination with people that enjoy watching predators in the wild. Now watching a yote try to dig up a ground squirrel is pretty fun to watch. Watching a grizzly rip up old logs looking for grubs is also fun to watch........

Watching a pack of wolves pull a calf elk out of its mother during birth is NOT FUN TO WATCH. Still, hundreds of out of staters will come to Montana, Wyoming and Idaho with their telephoto lenses for the simply purpose to watch this happen or to watch the wolves harrass the elk herds until a young one or old one falls out of the herd and then is taken by the pack.

You need to watch a wolf pack kill big game. It is not FUN to watch, in fact it is rather sad. It is not fast by any means. Often the big game animal is still alive when the pack begins to feed on it.

Mt lions are very efficent killers. They also do not kill more then they can eat. Once a wolf pack figures it can kill livestock much easier then wild game, it becomes a game. I have seen the results of two wolves wipe out an 30 sheep in one night. Only two of those sheep had anything eaten off them, the rest were just killed for sport.

When that happens you have only one option for those wolve, severe lead poisoning. Even the government knows that and thats why the fed trappers are sent out to take care of the problem.

Now I know all the bleeding hearts out there will say I need to buck up, this is just natures way, that may well be but realize this. Before the wolves were introduced, the game populations in Yellowstone, specifically the elk herds were thriving, actually getting to the troublesome stage with available forage for the herds and beginning to be a real pain in the rear for local ranchers. Why, because humanes were managing the herds and we did so so efficently that their numbers exploded.

Then they introduce the wolves for the "PURPOSE" of herd population control. Only problem is that there is NO control to these wolves, they kill mainly the young of the herds as I mentioned before. WHen you have severe calf predation, it does not take to many years before you get a situation where your elk popuations get very old in age and when they start dieing off, there are no replacement cows for the herds to rebuilt. Populations numbers drop off dramatically.

Also, when the elk herds leave the park trying to escape the pressure of the wolves, the packs simply fallow them out of the park onto private ground where they run into prime beef and sheep farms!!! Not only that, the deer populations increase as well. A whitetail of Muler deer stand little chance if a wolve pack decides that is what they want for dinner.

The famous late season Garder hunt in south Montana on the Yellowstone boarder used to offer over 2000 either sex permits. Last I heard from a friend in the FWP of Montana, they were considering stopping this hunt all together simply because there were not enough elk to support it. I have also heard reports that the yellowstone elk herd is roughly 30% of what it was before the wolves were introduced while the bison population is exploding which was the original purpose for the wolves in the first place.

Again, its out of staters that think they know how to solve our problems for us, mainly west and east coast libbers that have no clue at all how to correctly solve the problem and in fact create larger problems in the process. Still the people that live with the problem every day seem to never be heard on the subjects as long as some out of staters can take pictures of a calf elk being pulled from its mother during birth, I guess all is right in the world as that is how nature should be, BUNK!!!

So how should we have fixed the problem with over population of wildlife, let hunters do it, pure and simple. Not only are we the most effective predator on the planet, we are also the most efficent and more importantly most respective of the game we hunt. We do not kill more then allowed. While many of us hunt for sport, we do not waste the meat from our kills. I know many who have no interest in wild game to eat but they love hunting and as such they donate the meat to less fortunate in the community or to local food banks.

Its hard to recover a week old wolf kill to feed the poor!!! Even though alot of meat is wasted by wolf packs.

So again, I do not want to be disrespectful of your opinion but until you see the real side of a wild predator and its effect on our big game, you really are not educated about the situation.

Until you have seen a calf be pulled from its mother or a yearling calf seperated from the herd and partially eaten alive as it bauls for its herd or see a whitetail fan hammered by two coyotes as its mother desperately trys to fight them off. I have seen this, I have watched this and I have gladly hammered the hell out of those two coyotes that were on that fawn before they could mortally wound the fawn and I would do it every chance I get.

Nature had its way, the dominate predator took over the land and the wolves lost that battle to a much more efficent predator. Why are we taking a step back in big game management practices and giving our precious big game herds to these inefficent killers that waste more game then they are worth.

Natures was will also take care of the overpopulation of wolves as well. When all the big game populations drop so low that there is not enough game to feed them all, the wolf numbers will drop because of starvation. Then as the wolf numbers drop off, the big game numbers will recover and it will be a revolution over time. During which time, most hunting will be stopped because there is not enough game to support any hunting by humans for the sake of giving the wolves our big game.

Again, I am not trying to offend but if you could sit and watch these thing happen and not want to stop it, well, its just hard for me to understand that.

Would I pull the trigger on a wolf if I ran into one in the back country! I will plead the third "S" on that manner!!!:D

You can feel what you want but the wolf is not the majestic predator you believe he is. That is liberal propaganda that must have worked because now we have wolves running all over hell in our three states.

Sorry for the rant but if you had wolves in California you would feel differnetly, especially when those hard to get big game permits dropped in number but 70% over the last 10 years.

Kirby Allen(50)
 
Right on Kirby !!

There's a site -coyotegods and some of the callers over there act like coyotes do no wrong.
I will shoot any coyote i see -period- be it a month old pup playing at the den entrance to a wet bitch b/c i have seen first hand what a coyote is all about...

What would you montana ,wyoming and idaho guys say the number of wild wolves were before the gov't. started planting them ?
They were not extinct !

A friend very believable friend told me about an old rancher nw of boise ,id. happen upon two wolves chasing one of his horses [mare] one wolf was hid initially while one wolf chased .He said he just started trembling as the wolf sprinted after the mare going away from his position ,he ran and got his gun [30-06] and took off that direction.Jumped up a wolf that was laying in ambush for the horse and killed it.Then the chase came back by him and he killed the chasing wolf -2 shots from an old 30-06 =two wolves.
He called a game warden and the warden basically shrugged his shoulders -said good shooting....

Another friend told me a couple of weeks ago that they don't even see elk tracks where they use to all fill their tags every year.But plenty of wolf tracks !
 
Ok, there is a lot here to respond to so sorry if I do not hit everything.

To start out with in the above post I never said you should never shoot a predator. I wrote:

"I have no issue with people shooting mountain lions or wolves when getting tags for them but I also think that predators play an important role in the eco-system."

I do not agree with shooting everything you see just because you personal think it is the right thing. There are many biologists out there that are a lot more educated and spend a great deal more time studying these things that are better suited to make that judgment call than you or I about wildlife management. From what I read when doing a fast Google search the wolves were reintroduced to take care of the large elk populations which is exactly what you guys are seeing, not for bison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_reintroduction

I have trouble with the fact that when ever people from outside California talk to people that live in California they automatically assume that we are all from the some big city and are all flaming liberal.

I have been going out hunting with my family since I was 5 years old. My parents owned a sheep ranch while I was growing up and I worked on that ranch everyday before and after school. We had to get predation permits for mountain lion that were take ewes. My father and I shot domesticated dog that have packed up to have a little fun out on the town. They were not killing for even a bit of food but because the animals were running. Then I got to go around and kill all the sheep that were wounded to the point that they were unsalvageable or unrepairable. Plus you could not eat any of it because it was all pumped full of adrenaline and would taste like crap. So, I have seen the gore that domesticated dogs can do, which I can very much correlate to what wolves can do.

In that same period of time we were dealing with poachers on our property. To this day we think the poachers where the guys that owned the dogs in the above paragraph. The poachers would coming in the back of our property and shoot does and fawns. We found 4 does with just the back straps cut out and two fawns with just the hind quarters removed. I also hunted with a set of guys from Colorado one time that I met in college. We were hunting just out side of Grand Junction and I found out at the end of our week hunting trip the way they hunt. They went out on day 2 and shot a buck. They told me that they had missed it. They continued hunting the rest of the week. At the end of the week they told me that they had to go pick this buck up that they had shot earlier in the week. I figured it out later that the plan was that if they saw a bigger buck they would shoot it and not go back for the one that they had killed on day 2.


Fiftydriver,

So, as far as my opinion and observations of wolves compared to humans I totally agree with you when you say that we are a much more efficient killer than any other species on this planet. I personally can kill a lot more of them than they will ever take of us. But from what I read in another thread wolves are not effecting your hunting if you took 6 big game animals last fall.

You say you do not understand the fascination with people that enjoy watching predators in the wild, but in the next sentence you said it is fun to watch some aspects of their life. The fact that before we had guns and bows, humans were pack animals as well and that is how we got our food. Not every animal has learned to be so efficient, but we work together today when we go out hunting with our budies. We like the social asspect of pack hunting ourselves when we get back to camp or longrangehunting.com and start to tell our stories. Everyone has seen animal planet and how nature works. My wife wants to watch shark week on the history channel but then says "aaahhhh" every time a seal gets eaten by a shark. That is why she does not hunt. She does not have the stomach for it.

Most liberals have no clue and have probably never seen the gruesome nature of what really happens when animals hunt. They can not even deal with the fact that chickens have to die so that they can go down and buy their Kentucky Fried Chicken three piece meal deal. This is why they want to take guns away from everyone and stop all hunting. I do not like watching animals get torn apart buy other animals while they are still alive but have come to the realization that until they start using guns they may not have much other choice. It might make hunting a lot more like the middle east though.

In fact the Mountain Lions in our area kill when they get the chance and usually bury it for later. They do not always come back for everything they kill.

I agree with this statement:

"Once a wolf pack figures it can kill livestock much easier then wild game, it becomes a game. I have seen the results of two wolves wipe out an 30 sheep in one night."

This is the same as I said above about the domesticated dog. But I do think that if this is an issue you get a predation permit go take care of the issue at hand. If you get caught shooting wolves or mountain lions you will not be happy. In California if you get caught shooting a mountain lion it is a $10k fine, they take all your equipment, and you will not be able to hunt for a long while. That surely would not be worth it to me.

You wrote: "Before the wolves were introduced, the game populations in Yellowstone, specifically the elk herds were thriving, actually getting to the troublesome stage with available forage for the herds and beginning to be a real pain in the rear for local ranchers. Why, because humanes were managing the herds and we did so so efficently that their numbers exploded."

I think you mean that we took care of it inefficiently? Is that correct?

So, ranchers and farmers will never be happy if there are wolves or elk. Maybe we should just kill everything. Ranchers hate wolves, Farmers hate elk. What are we to do? :eek:

Another idea would have been to allow hunters to hunt in the national parks. I am all up for that because I have seen some really nice bucks in Yosemite. But I guarantee that will never happen since firearms are not allowed in national parks and the liberals will never let that get over turned.

I understand the cyclic cycle of predators and prey and most of the other stuff you wrote. My reply is just getting to long. Any way, I think we are in violent agreement except for the two facts:

1) I will not just drop every predator I see, because I do not think that them being around overly effect my hunting. I hunted or have buddies that have hunted in all the states that have had wolves reintroduced and we all get animals every time we go.

2) I enjoy seeing all kinds of animals when I am out hunting that most people will never see in their lives because they never leave the cities and roam into the wild.

I am not trying to say that your way or my way is right or wrong. This is just my opinion.

Thanks for putting out your point of view and I can not wait for your reply.

This is one dumb Californian signing off for the night. Talk to you guys again in the morning. :)

Sherman
 
"I will not just drop every predator I see, because I do not think that them being around overly effect my hunting. I hunted or have buddies that have hunted in all the states that have had wolves reintroduced and we all get animals every time we go."

If you went out predator calling and walked 5 + mile loops according to a gps and in doing that a few times in the same region you saw 1 pronghorn and 1 desert mule deer w/coyote tracks and coyote scat full of deer hair -would you shoot the coyotes you see ?
I'm sure you would and you'd be doing the right thing.
When i go out and shoot every coyote i see -what fraction of a percent does that take out of the overall coyote population ?
Matter of fact i'm going after them this evening.

I think the whole discussion here is not about wanting to see ALL big predators dead it's about a gov't putting laws on the books to fully protect them.
Had the wolves that were already in the rocky mountain states been managed there would be plenty of wolves in tolerable numbers.There was no need in bringing canadian timber wolves here ,as you say let the hunters due what hunters do.
When i hear a coyote howl in the distance i love it it's all part of the outdoor expierence ,but if that coyote was protected by law and was killing peoples livestock and pets then i'd feel differently.
 
Buffalobob said:
Problem is all you transplanted here was your corrupt politicians. :D
Click to expand...

What better place for Wolves,Grizzlies and Mt lions ! If they do ½ as good of a job on the polititions as they have on the wild game out here we will all be better off :p
 
I think I have a bit of info since I have a Ranch in Idaho with wolves on it (in the Nez Perce area) but also live in California. From here, you don't hear ANY of the problems these wolves actually cause, but once you hit Idaho and start reading up or watching the news you'll hear of what mindless killers these packs of wolves are. In one weekend a pack of Wolves in the Stanely area of Idaho killed 6 elk and left them, killed them for sport. Whereas in California you'll get the Lions who will kill - and sometimes kill and bury with the intention of EATING. The wolves however have no such intention. California's Lions are going to become a huge problem soon as food runs out and people keep encroaching on their territories. I feel within the next decade Lion attacks will go up in California due to the fact we aren't allowed to control populations. To me, I would rather hunt the Lions down to safer numbers then know they are dying due to starvation. Very rarely will a lion attack a human unless it's starving. I don't feel it's a fair comparison...

Maybe we should send the California Liberals to Idaho to teach the wolves about bag limits :)
 
SES50,

First off, let me say I hope this convesation will stay good hearted. Heated debate is one thing but no need to flame each other which I do not think anyone is doing at this time so I hope it stays this way.

Also, when I refer to the west and east coast liberals, that is exactly who I am referring to. I never did and do not believe you are one of these. I am fully aware of the fine folks that live in your state including yourself that are no different then any other nature loving person. BUT you have to agree that the liberals in these areas are a much larger voice then your conservative voice and that is why we now have wolves in Yellowstone and also Wyoming, Montana and Idaho and at the rate they are going, there will be many more states with them soon.

Now to your comments in preply to mine.

Yes, Predators are enjoyable to watch. That comment has nothing to do with saying it is enjoyable to watch a calf elk being pulled from its mother and eaten alive by a pack of wolves. Does this happen in nature, yes when the wolves were here naturally. SHould it happen now, in my opinion, NO. The reason, there is no need for it. We do not need the wolves to control the game populations, humans can do it much more effiecently and without waste then any wolve pack can and also without the added headaches that come with the packs.

The area I hunt in is in north central Montana, flat land, river bottom hunting that until recently has not had a wolf in it since early in the 1900s. That said, last summer a wolf was hit on the highway just 3 miles from my house. The game populations in my area have not been intruded upon by wolf packs, YET, but if it stays the way it is, they will be before my kids will be able to hunt.

I HAVE witnessed hunting areas that offered 2000 permits a season for either sex elk just a decade ago that now offer less then 100 permits????? IS that effecting how I hunt, you bet it does, figure if 14,000 people apply for 2000 permits every year. What the pecentages of being drawn. Now figure what the odds are with 14,000 people are competing for 100 permits............. Yes it effects me and everyone else in my state as well as the out of staters that get a 10% cut of all our permits as well. So that cuts the number of permits down to only 90 for instate hunters........ Yes it effects me.

Your comment about this is how it will be until the predators start carrying rifles will not hold true either. IT was not like this before the wolves were reintroduced. It does not have to be this way now. The wolves are not a critical componant of the natural ballance in the area, they have not been for decades but now that they have been dropped into an ecosystem that has not had them in it for nearly 100 years, its like dropping a mad man with a gun in the middle of a crowded mall. Only thing is that in this case, there would be no one able to stop the gunman. They could just go and do what they wanted under the rule of natures law. When an ecosystem is not used to a large natural predator in the area, you will not get a natural balance result.

You are correct that lions will bury their kills. SO will grizzlies simply because they can not eat everything in one setting. It is also true that at times they will not return to their kills but more times then not this is because they themselves have been disrupted by human interaction or something has disturbed their kill sight by stinking it up with human smell.

That said, a single cat or bear will not kill nearly as many head of game as a pack of wolves. Cats are also dramatically more efficent killers then wolves. Yes there are some problem cats that need to be eliminated because they are a problem to live stock but this is very rare compared to wild dogs causing problems.

The problem with California cats is that they have no reason to fear humans simply because of the laws your vocal liberal lawmakers have passed not allowing you to hunt them. ITs getting the same way here with the grizzlies. They hear a rifle go off and they know there is a fresh gut pile waiting for them and they come running. They have no fear of humans because there is no reason to, that is why hunters are now being killed in Montana by grizzlies being taken right off their kills. This has not happened yet with wolves but I suspect it will not be long until they figure it out.

If your state would allow cats to be hunted, maybe a few less of those high class hikers would be attacked by cats!!!! We do not have a cat problem in Montana, they fear us and keep their distance in most cases because they have a reason to. The wolves and grizzlies have no reason to fear humans and because of that they do not. Again, another problem with having wolves around. Grizzlies are not that bad, they will not come down in your back yard unless you live right on the front, wolves will follow whereever the herds go.

As far as the inefficent care of the game herds in yellowstone, thats a federal issue my friend, Montana, Idaho and Wyoming has done and are still doing a great job managing the elk herds in those three states. Our elk herds have grown steadily over the years in areas away from wolve packs in spite of may consectutive years of drought.

So what is the cure, well, to be honest, the best would have been to allow selective game harvesting inside the park under very strick supervision which certainly could have been done correctly but again, could you imagine the stick that would have been raised by the liberals screaming about elk being hunted in Yellowstone park!!!! My god it would be better to let the elk herds die off from starvation or disease then that which is what was about to happen.

Fortunately, the libbers came up with the great idea to put in a totally unregulated, unrestricted predator in this ecosystem. Read the sarcasm there!!!

A disease would have been better because once its goes through a herd its over and the herd rebuilds, with wolves, the disease only gets stronger and larger in number until there is no more game to support it and then they move to a different game species or livestock. Again it was not needed to introduce wolves into the area. Humans could have easily managed the elk herds much more efficently if the liberal, progressive minds would have not taken over the issue.

As to your two points of comments that you feel we disagree with.

1. I will not shoot predators on site either. I hunt coyotes in the fall and winter when their pelts are quality. I do not shoot them in the spring when I know they have a den full of pups that will starve to death if I kill their parents. I will however shoot them if they are attacking deer and I see it. This may sound hypicritical to you and if so thats fine but in this area, there are so many small game animals that deer are not a major source of food for coyotes. That is until recently when we have witnessed coyotes hunting in larger packs specifically for deer. This is an evolved behavior and I will do everything I can to eliminate the pack leaders that are teaching this to the rest of the pack. So far, in this area anyway, we have done pretty good at doing this.

I will not shoot a cat on sight, not a bear and probably not a wolf inspite of really wanting to do so to the latter. Now if any were threatening livestock it would be a done deal and I would deal with what came later.

2. We are in agreement here as well. Most people have no idea what they are reintroducing into the wild because they have never seen what really happens in the wild!!!! Unfortunately most people that have the loudest voices come from the big cities and somehow they have the power to tell us what to do. Funny thing is that those people protecting this country, far and away come from the country compared to big city folks, so basically the country folk give the big city libbers the ability to control us.. How ironic is that.

I think by and large we are not disagreeing with much at all expect a few personal experiences that have molded our point of view. If you had wolves in your back yard, I suspect your reaction would be similiar to that of what you did with the domesitc dogs, which by the way is exactly what I would and have done!!!

Kirby Allen(50)
 
+1 Kirby, you expressed our problems nicely. When I start seeing wolf tracks between Gt. Falls and Ft. Benton, (which I have already), I know it wont be long before those tracks become more plentiful. If we dont get a legal way to controll the territory acquisition the packs take, we (ranchers, farmers, and hunters alike) will all be up the creek without a paddle. Breaking the law is not the way to do it, but unless the lawmakers get off their duff and provide for a legal control method, it may be too late.

Jim Toms (MT4XFore)
 
Most surveys taken believe that deer populations are actually higher than they were at the time of the pilgrims. The belief is that we wiped out all their natural predators, so they have boomed.

This would seem to be born out by the fact that there were something like 1.5 MILLION plus deer/car collisions in the United States last year!

Buffalo populations are down, essentially because we hunted them to the brink of extinction. Elk populations are PROBABLY down from pre-Pilgrim times, but mostly because we pushed them off their native habitat, the open prairies of the US and Canada, and up into the mountains, because we wanted to farm the prairies.

Both Buffalo and Elk populations were HUGE prior to OUR depredations, even with normal Wolf/Cougar/Coyote populations.

Do wolves kill without need, sometimes, maybe. Some of the excess kills are simply young wolves practicing their killing skills, according to researchers.

Do wolves kill livestock? You bet!! Four legged grass eaters are all the same to wolves; they taste good, and if they are easy to kill because they are slow or fenced in, all the better! We bred cows and sheep to be slow, by the way, so that we could keep track of them easier!

Are the wolf populations wiping out the huntable elk and deer?

Maybe they have had some impact, but before you lay all the blame on the wolves and other predators, look at ALL the factors that play a part. Water availability, snow fall, summer temperatures, winter temperatures, forest fires, human encroachment, etc.

I've seen areas that had lots of deer for years suddenly be barren, only to find an area 20 miles away that had no deer suddenly have dozens. There are too many factors to blame it all on predator populations.

It's sort of like global warming. Blaming ALL of global warming on fossil fuel consumption is poor science. There simply isn't enough data over a long enough period to draw the conclusion. Might it be playing a part? Of course! Should we be paying attention? Of course! But drawing conclusions after 2 decades in a system that is as complex and long lived as Earth's? Well that is just bad science.

Predator impact on game animals is in the same place. Are they having an impact? Of course! But just how much impact is still up in the air! I live in Central Washington where we have watched Mule deer populations rise and fall and rise and fall, and we don't have ANY major predators anymore, unless you count coyotes.

As a final example, I have lived in the same house for 9 years, inside of city limits, in a developed neighborhood, although one with large lots. In that time, prior to June of this year, we had had 2 encounters with skunks, both when our dog was off leash at night and found them.

Since June, though, we have had 6 encounters, and I have trapped 4 skunks in a live trap.

Why the sudden increase? Well, I think it is because a developer is putting in a new neighborhood blocks away and the skunks are being pushed out. Can I prove that? Nope! Maybe we've always had skunks in my yard and we just got lucky for all those years!

Bill
 
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