Bad annealing?

Discussion in 'The Basics, Starting Out' started by straightshooter, Jan 25, 2011.

  1. straightshooter

    straightshooter Well-Known Member

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    I was going through my shooting log and noticed something perplexing. It seems that after I anneal my brass my bullet run-out, and group sizes seem to increase. Now I know that if my bullet run-out increases, my groups will open up some, but the groups almost double do to fliers. The flier count quadruples. What I do to anneal my brass is to chuck the brass in a drill and spin it in the torch for about 5-6 seconds. I am thinking now that this is to long and I am making the brass to soft. After 3-4 reloads the run-out drops again and the groups go back to normal with very few fliers. What do you guys think, am I onto something here?
     
  2. MTBULLET

    MTBULLET Well-Known Member

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    how hot is your brass getting ?
    how far down does the "heat" go on the case ?
     

  3. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

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    I wondered about the type of process you are using. I feel that if your goal is to have all of the neck tension the same all of the brass needs to be heated evenly to the same temp by a controlled method. I use the Bench Source annealer and set the dwell time so the brass exits the torches at 650* F. A good friend turmed me on to using a temp lazer gun to shoot the brass as soon as it exits. Works very well and I have not had any issues. I anneal every reloading or at most every 2 firings.

    Jeff
     
  4. straightshooter

    straightshooter Well-Known Member

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    Let me describe my annealing a little better. What I do is put the brass in a deep socket that comes just below the shoulder. The brass is spun at pretty high speed to try and get an even heat. I learned this technique from the internet. On the net this person was annealing in a dimly lit room, and he heated the brass just before it (for lack of a better word) flamed. The first time I annealed my own brass I did it in the dark, and found that it took 5-6 seconds to get to that point with my torch. From that point on I just timed each piece with the lights on, and been doing this ever since. I really don't know how hot this brass is getting.
     
  5. foreign

    foreign Well-Known Member

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    i use a baking tray, stand the brass up in it and then fill it with water to the level that i want to stop the heat going past the neck and shoulder. then take a torch and heat each one until its got the faintest glow. tip it over and move on.
    i havent noticed groups opening up after it. but maybe i just havent been paying attention.
    Try it and if it has the same effect then we both have issues.:D

    the other thing ive tried is holding them in my hand. that way they defiantly dont get to hot.
     
  6. straightshooter

    straightshooter Well-Known Member

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    I definitely think I have an annealing issue. The same thing is happening with my other rifle.
     
  7. foreign

    foreign Well-Known Member

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    try the method i said. then i can learn too:D
     
  8. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

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    For about $60 you can get a laser temp gun. That may help in knowing exactly how hot you are getting your brass.

    Jeff
     
  9. cowboy

    cowboy Well-Known Member

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    I would guess (and it is only a guess) that you are over heating or going beyond 660F and this in turn is softening your brass too much.. I say this because you say that accuracy comes back after 3-4 reloadings. You are "work hardening" the brass ever time you fire it or reload it. I think you may be getting it back to the right hardness after it has been softened too much. Broz's solution would tell you for sure what temp you are reaching. Keep in mind that all torches are not equal and whatever time you are holding your brass in the heat is really dependant on your heat source.

    A couple of suggestions or other ideas you may consider:
    -- you can go to your local welding supply store and purchase a heat temp crayon that you put a mark on your brass. I would get the 650 or 660F temp crayon. When the crayon starts to melt you have reached your temp.(they should run about 8-12 bucks)
    -- To make seeing things more easily - I would turn the lights in your room way down or off whatever you can function with (even sunglasses help in a well lit room). The lower the light in the room the easier it is to see what the reaction of the heat is causing to your brass.
    -- It was not mentioned or discussed previously but if you start with really shiny brass you will see the reaction much better/easier. You can either tumble it or steel wool it just below the shoulder up through the end of the neck and then when you apply the heat source the rough rule of thumb is just when the brass starts to get a blue color -THAT'S ENOUGH. If you are getting a red color on your brass you have went too far. There is a very fine line between these 2 points.
    -- I use a long socket from standard socket set that allows the cases you are annealing to slip in/out very easily and turn it with a electric screw driver. When you reach the correct temp just turn your screw driver upside down and drop your heated brass into a coffee can of water - drop another brass into your socket and do it again.

    Don't give up and don't get frustrated - I would suggest just practicing on some old brass until you get comfortable with the results. Heck - First time I did it I picked up every piece of brass at our range I could find and the one thing it taught me is that all brass is not the same.

    Take care and good luck - when you get it down it is well worth the journey.
     
  10. straightshooter

    straightshooter Well-Known Member

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    Thanks cowboy for the input. It seems you are using the same technique that I am. This is encouraging if it works for you. I will give it another attempt in a few more reloading cycles.