AR 30 .338 Lapua or Rem Sendero .338RUM

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by sniperVLS, Jan 17, 2006.

  1. sniperVLS

    sniperVLS Well-Known Member

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    You can all thank goodgrouper and his damn pictures for getting me thinking again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    I know theres many Custom rifles I could get built but right now, I'd like to keep it *fairly* simple and see how it goes.

    Im a big fan of the Senderos, and getting an SF model in .338rum wouldnt be a problem.

    I also hear good things about the Armalite AR 30. Prices will be about the same. By the time Id get a JP brake put on the Sendero, and they do their Performance package, Im looking at about $1,400.00[8 or 900 for rifle, 500.00 for JP work]. Just posting general amounts, a hundred either way is expected when I make my move.

    I'd get another Super Sniper as I love them thus far. I have a budget to work with so go easy on me.

    Now as far as ballistics go, the Scenars at Lapuas site are so far ahead in energy that its almost laughable. Are their charts right?

    Lets stick to Factory ammo for arguments sake. I compared Federals .338rum to Remingtons, and the Federals have more energy and a better B.C. on average. With that out of the way....

    Lets use 600 yards as an example...

    Federals 225 grain Accubond measures in @ 2,131 ft lbs. Their Bonded Bear Claw 250 grain comes in @ 1,535 ft lbs.

    Toss in the Lapua Scenar and you get 3,378 ft lbs at that same distance?!?! Am I reading their chart wrong at the Lapua site? You can find it under Ammunition/Sport/Rifle Cartidges/Tables for those interested.

    Im asking if Im reading that chart wrong because I keep hearing how the .338rum can do everything the .338 lapua can. If those #'s are right, then those people are misinformed. The Energy difference in the Lapua would allow one to reach out a good distance further and make it much more versatile.

    Realistically, for hunting, I wouldnt be doing any "goodgrouper" shots, yet. 5 to 600 yards would be realistic, and Im confident at that range.

    I just want something.... how do I say this...

    I want something thats Brutal, in a bone crunching kinda way .

    I'd probably get around to reloading, as .338 lapua factory is expensive as hell. That brings me to another question...how much is your average round for reloading? At $70 - $80.00 per 20 Scenars, surely its got to be atleast half that.

    If Im not reading those charts wrong, the decision is easy. Id get the AR 30 in .338 lapua. If I am an idiot, and cannot read a simple chart, and the actual #'s are closer than I think, then Id probably get the Sendero. Seems it would be cheaper to shoot in the long run as well, plus Im a Remmy whore /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    After scope/rings/base, the Sendero would weigh a hair under 11 lbs. Ive seen 2 weights for the AR 30. 12 and 14 lbs, so after scope mounting, it would be either 14 or 16 lbs, so weight doesnt play a huge role by any means.

    Any first hand experiences with the AR 30? Im concerned about its barrel, although I hear its decent. I know people love the brake, making it fun to shoot. Ive read some threads on it but none that are very recent. Im already familiar with Senderos so no need to go into detail about those.

    And as far as looks go, I can go either way. The AR 30 looks all business, and the Sendero SF is just sex for the eyes.

    Opinions/Ideas/Thoughts?

    Thanks for putting up with me

    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

    Note: Maybe a Sendero in .300wm? And the AR in .338 lapua? Toss in the .308 and I'd be covered. Ignore this, I took too much Nyquil earlier and Im kinda dazed. If I read the lapua ballistic charts wrong, I will use that excuse /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
     
  2. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong the 338's are cool but I would talk to fiftydriver and see what he can set you up with in either one of his 7mm allen mag or his 270 am. Just drop less and still hold enough energy to anchor mostly anything at 5-600 yrds. Just a thought. I'm looking at getting the 7mm built.
     

  3. chris matthews

    chris matthews Well-Known Member

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    Sticking with factory ammo.....out to 600 you won't see much of a difference between the RUM and the Lapua.....but in the long long shots...then the Lapua and the 300 MK take over and dominate.
     
  4. zingdingo

    zingdingo Well-Known Member

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    sniperVLS,

    I can't tell you what is better, but I can figure how much reloads would cost (approximately).

    100 250gr. Lapua Scenars are $44.99, so 45 cents each
    98 gr. RETUMBO or H1000 (98/7000) * $20, so 28 cents per powder charge
    primers - 2 cents each

    $0.75 per loaded round, or $15 for a box of 20.

    Those numbers would be virtually the same for either cartridge, but brass costs vary significantly.

    Lapua brass is going for ~ $1.75 a piece
    Rem brass in going for ~ $.50 a piece

    So starting with 100 pieces of brass would be a $175 investment with the Lapua, or a $50 investment with the Rem.

    Based on the powder capacities alone, it seems the rounds should be neck and neck in performance.

    Hope that helps,
    Carl
     
  5. BravoEMike

    BravoEMike Well-Known Member

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    Greetings...SniperVLS

    An interesting read for you,
    search the net with...
    The 338 Ultra, a poor man's Lapua,
    authored by Mike Miller,
    makes interesting reading.
    ...and somewhat answers your questions.
    As I am certain you are aware, I am also looking for a Sendero in .338 Ultra.
    However it is not for me....but, my brother wants one.
    If I were going to buy a .338 Mag, i.e. .338 win, 340 weatherby, .338-378 weatherby, and the many custon .338 calibers...
    without hesatation it would be a .338 Lapua in an Accuracy International AWM-F.
    But....they cost immense amounts of money!!
    If you open a box of .338 RUM at your local ammunition store, you will note the bullets tips are clipped.
    So as to keep overall length short enough to clear the action...or so I have been told.
    Me thinks this will not make for good down range performance.
    However...I have no experience with this cartrige.
    Of course you could get a Rem. 700 donor action send it off and have it chambered for the caliber of your choice, good quality barrel for about the same amount of money.
    I offered this suggestion to my brother and he isn't budging.
    He wants a sendero...

    Good luck in your choice.

    Bruce
     
  6. sniperVLS

    sniperVLS Well-Known Member

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    Bruce, Ive read the Poor Mans Lapua b4 and it doesnt help me, I wish it did /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    He says..

    [ QUOTE ]
    The caliber is close to the .338 Lapua but not its equal. The additional velocity will give the hand loaded Lapua rounds an edge in extreme distance shooting, but if a reloader of the Ultra shoots against factory Lapua ammunition, the edge tips back to the Ultra.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I can't see handloaded RUM equalling the factory lapua ballsitics I posted. Again..

    .338 RUM
    225 grain Federal (400 yards) = 2,784 ftlbs
    250 grain Federal (400 yards) = 2,264 ft lbs
    250 grain Rem A Frame (400 yards) = 2,347 ft lbs
    250 grain Rem (400 yards) = 2,363 ft lbs

    .338 Lapua
    250 grain Lapua Scenar (400 yards) = 4,277 ft lbs

    The lapua factory offers twice the energy of RUM factory??? I heard Black Hills offers decent lapua.

    If Im not reading it wrong, how can even RUM handloads come close to that of factory Lapua? As far as the lapua Scenars are concerned, I hear people gushing over them and liking them much more than SMKs for hunting(thats a whole other debate).

    Noone has verified if Im reading the ballistics charts correctly. If I am, as far as *factory* ammo is concerned, the Lapua gets you more range/energy than the RUM.

    I don't know when Id start reloading for either, if ever. If Long Range shooting/hunting was the only thing I enjoyed, I'd spend whatever it takes. But I love all kinds of firearms for different reasons so I wont splurge on just one type. I've got more Sigs and a Bushmaster to buy.

    I wish the Sendero came in the Lapua, no decision would have 2 be made /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    I havent seen anything that shows the RUM can match the energy of a Lapua downrange. Accuracy doesnt come into play seeing as both are excellent.

    The caliber is what will be the deciding factor. Right now the Lapua is winning.

    I've never opened a box of .338rum at a store, I'll have to check them out.

    I think Im going to overdose on Nyquil and sleep for a while, my head is pounding and thinking about this makes it worse /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
     
  7. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

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    i don't know what the difference is in ft lbs but i'll guarantee you it's no where near what you've posted.the speeds from these two cartridges are very,very close.i'd be willing to bet if you looked on the lapua site, the numbers given were in metric.they probably were the metric equivalent to ft lbs. not sure what that would be,but the ft lbs of energy from these two cartridges would be almost identical.
     
  8. sniperVLS

    sniperVLS Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    i don't know what the difference is in ft lbs but i'll guarantee you it's no where near what you've posted.the speeds from these two cartridges are very,very close.i'd be willing to bet if you looked on the lapua site, the numbers given were in metric.they probably were the metric equivalent to ft lbs. not sure what that would be,but the ft lbs of energy from these two cartridges would be almost identical.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I believe Dave may be onto something. And he just made my decision for me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Yardage and velocity are metric at lapuas site, the energy definitely isn't ft lbs now that I look at the other #'s. Thanks Dave.

    I just found some .338 lapua ballistics for other makers and they indeed arent much higher than .338rum. Now it all comes together.

    The Sendero in .338RUM it is /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    Thanks for putting up with me. Oh and thanks for the reloading #'s zingdingo
     
  9. uncleB

    uncleB Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Sticking with factory ammo.....out to 600 you won't see much of a difference between the RUM and the Lapua.....but in the long long shots...then the Lapua and the 300 MK take over and dominate.

    [/ QUOTE ] I absolutely agree, but if you dont hand load you have no business shooting past 600yds and expect satisfactory results.
    UB
     
  10. BravoEMike

    BravoEMike Well-Known Member

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    SniperVLS,
    Glad to hear your anguish is gone,
    let us know how you get along with this rifle/caliber combination...
    Loads, velocities,accuracy?
    enjoy!

    Bruce
     
  11. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    sinclair intl sells 338 lapua for $1.44 each and RUM for .54 each and they will be the highest prices found anywhere. The lapua will last 4x as long as Rem and 5x the quality, requires more throw aways, sorting, weighing etc, so how is Rem a better buy? It certainly is cheaper initially I will admit but costlier and less accurate in the long run.

    Brass is the cheapest component of quality LR system and one of the most important. Any "quality" LR system built on Rem brass is like a NASCAR car built on a Yugo frame IMO.

    Any top 1000 yard shooter will tell you three things matter the most, "barrel, brass and bullets". Never scrimp on those three.

    I have 100 pieces NIB 338 Lapua now will sell for $125.

    BH
     
  12. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for getting you all riled up on guns again, but hey, there's worse things to be daydreaming about! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    These two cartridges are very similiar in speed when loaded by hand to top pressures. I didn't go and check the numbers on the energies, but I can tell you that if the comparison is at 400 yards and the Lapua is using Scenars and the RUM is using partitions or a basic lead nosed, flat based bullet, then the charts WILL tell you that the Lapua kicks butt. <font color="blue"> However, this is not because the cartridge is better, it is because the bullet is better. </font> The 250 grain Scenar has a bc of .675 and the basic doggy Remington bullet might make it into the low point two's-eerr 4's!? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
    That's going to make a difference at 400 yards you can bet.
     
  13. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Brass is the cheapest component of quality LR system and one of the most important. Any "quality" LR system built on Rem brass is like a NASCAR car built on a Yugo frame IMO.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree with the first part of this statement but not the last. I have match prepped both 338 lapua and 338 ultra brass and can say that overall, the Lapua was better. But, the Remington was not bad. It was much better than most people give it credit for. You might have to buy 150 pieces to get 100 that are all the same, but big deal. Once it is all sorted and everything is similiar, they produce groups in the 1/4" range same as Lapua. I have done it with both brands.


    [ QUOTE ]
    The lapua will last 4x as long as Rem and 5x the quality

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I have also not seen this to be the case (no pun intended) on super high pressure cartridges like these 338's.
     
  14. sniperVLS

    sniperVLS Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the additional info /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

    The big .338s are new to me. Ive been in .308/.300wm land far too long. I decided to add another caliber to my collection, one that will be/should be downright brutal at the ranges I'm comfortable with.