APS & LSR Rebarrel Projects

Discussion in 'Equipment Discussions' started by victor, May 12, 2006.

  1. victor

    victor Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    139
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Project Report,

    I had 2 rifles rebarreled in parallel. .270Wby Rebarreled by Kirby Allen(APS) and a .257Wby rebarreled by Chris Mathews (LSR).

    Specs:
    .270Wby sports a SST Rock Creek Barrel 5R cut rifling, 1 in 10 twist heavy barrel with deep cut flutes, 26" long. Short Throat specd by Kirby.
    Barreled action weighs 7 lbs. With stock and scope = 11lbs.



    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    270Wby with 16X Super Sniper in temporary Bell & Carlson Stock (not bedded, just slapped into stock)

    All targets shot at 100yards.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    This was all the load developing I've done so far. My final load for the .270 is IMR7828-69.5gr, 140 Accubond.

    This rifle is a real pleasure to shoot and I am very happy with it. Kirby did an awesome job and I have to give credit to Mike Rock. He did a great job with the deep cut fluting. The barrel is 1.120 at the threads straight for 6 inches and then a straight taper that ends at .75" dia at the muzzle.

    .257Wby Rebarreled by Chris Mathews is next.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The .257Wby has a lighter SST barrel, It's a Broughton 5R button pulled barrel, 26" long and was fluted by Chris.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The final load I've selected for the .257Wby is IMR7828-70.5gr, 115 Nosler Balistic Tip.

    I was just starting to narrow down my load development when the .257 started giving my trouble. Just last week while at the range, the firing pin released when I closed the bolt. I did not pull the trigger. The primer was not hit, but the cocking piece slipped off the sear and wedged on top of it. I could not even open the bolt until the trigger was pulled, releasing the sear and unwedging the cocking piece. I tried to close the bolt (with the chamber empty) several times and and the firing pin released about 50% of the time. I want to point out that Chris did not work on the trigger and this is something that developed about 4 months after getting the rifle back. I suspect that the tolerance stack up in all the parts are at minimum material condition and whatever wear has occured with normal wear of cycling the bolt has allowed the cocking piece to slip off the sear.

    I just mailed the rifle to a Wby service center for repair. I'll see what they say in about 3 weeks.

    Well that's the end of my report.

    Take care,
    Vic
     
  2. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

    Messages:
    5,085
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2001
    How did Chris throat the 257?

    Just my opinion, but I don't think the gun likes your powder & bullet combination. I would try 4350, 4831 and RL22. Depending on what you intend to use the 257 on, you might consider the Accubond or Sierra 120 gameking or Hornady 115 SPBT. One of the problems of the 257 is the lack of high BC bullets to shoot.

    Perhaps switching primers would help and yes I know everybody recommends Fed 215s but sometimes something else works better.

    Final thought is that I have broad band and you are killing me with that many pictures in one post. The slow dial up people are going to hunt you down and stake you out in a prairie dog town. Might want to consider in the future breaking it up into two or three separate posts so people can open up multiple windows.
     

  3. James Jones

    James Jones Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,854
    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Those are two sweet looking rifles , could you get some better pics of the flutes and what size they are ?

    What kind of velocity are you getting?

    Have you compaired the velocities between the two barrels ?
     
  4. victor

    victor Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    139
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Hi Bob,

    Chris put a short throat in the .257Wby. I can load bullets touching the lands.
    I have tried various bullet combinations and have not found the perfect load yet. I have tried IMR4831 and it will not perform in any of my rifles. H4350 works great in my .243Win but is a bit too fast for the magnums and from bief testing, has not given me reason to pursue it further.

    69.0gr of Reloder 22 works ok with the 120gr Sierra Game King hollow pt., (if you can read the writing on the lower left corner of each target, you can see the recipe) it is one of the powder/bullet cominations I tried.

    I also tried Nosler Accubonds 110gr, with Reloader 25, but did not get good results, 1.5" groups, not even worth posting.

    I've been trying lots of powder/bullet combinations, various distances off lands, and just can't find anything that will shoot consistently. The 115gr Accubond with 70.5gr of IMR7828 is the most consistent load I have found to date.

    I have not checked bullet speed yet. Will have to wait for the rifle to come back to check.

    Sorry about the file size. Not sure what you pay for dial-up but just for your info, I use dslextreme service and it's $15 / month. Way worth the price compared to dial up. I suggest you keep your eyes open for special deals, SBC has been advertising DSL for $12.95 or something like that. When you upgrade to a DSL connection you will feel like a hundred lb boulder has been lifted off or your shoulders.

    Take care,
    Vic
     
  5. victor

    victor Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    139
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    JDJones,

    I cannot get closer pics, I tried but the image blurrs if I try to get closer.
    I specified the flutes on the Rock Creek barrel.
    Rock Creek will cut them to your specs. That's a big plus in my book.
    The barrel has 8 flutes. The minimum amount of material between the bottom of a flute and the bore is .150. The cutter is shaped with 45 deg. side walls and I think it was a .07 radius at the bottom of the flute.

    The barrel started out as 1.120 dia, is straight for 6.0 inches and then a straight taper until it ends at .75 diameter.

    If I had it to do over, I would go 3 to 4" straight and start the taper sooner, that would take a little more weight out of it. Right now it does not fit well into my current stock pictured. There is hardly any meat on the sides of the forearm. I cut the channel in the forearm at an angle so I would not go as deep into the stock and break thru the walls, so there is a lot of upward pressure from the stock, but I don't think the barrel notices any of it. I do have a new Bell & Carlson Medalist, Varmint, Wby style stock on order. I will properly glass bed and freefloat when it comes in.

    I have not had time to check speed yet. I will do that the next time I have a chance to get to the range. I will keep you posted as data becomes available.

    See ya,
    Vic
     
  6. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,634
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Victor, just curious as why you would go with a 1.12 dia. this seems a little small. not much shoulder hitting against the receiver. most blanks come with a 1.200 or 1.250.
     
  7. wadevb1

    wadevb1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    218
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2004
    Those pics are not exactly good advertising for Chris or Kirby. I had to look again at your range distance as I expected those groups to be at 300 yards. I don't want to give you the wrong impression as they are some fine looking rifles, but something is off in your load recipe.
     
  8. victor

    victor Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    139
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Dave,

    No particular reason for the 1.20 O.D.

    The barrel started life as a Rock Creek M24 barrel which is 1.20.

    In hind sight, would .025" per side make a big difference?

    I don't know.

    Vic
     
  9. victor

    victor Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    139
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Wadevb1,

    The workmanship on both rifles looks excellent. How they shoot is another matter. A lot of variables determine a rifles accuracy. It could be the barrel, it could be the brass, it could be the poweder bullet combination, seating depth, etc.

    I'm just putting it out there the way it is. I was hoping to get little bug hole groups with the new barrels but that's just not reality.

    The reality is that the .270 with the heavy barrel shoots most loads consistently. It gets 5/8 to 3/4 of an inch with just about any of the powder combinations that I have tried except for the IMR4831. That stuff has just never worked in any of my rifles.

    The .257Wby with the thinner barrel is a lot more sensitive however. It only likes a certain powder and within a certain range. I have tried loads above and below the shown charge weights and other bullet types. I listed the loads which seemed to be the most consistent and accurate.

    Both actions were trued & lugs lapped. I see guys posting pics of groups tighter than mine at 300 yards and I tell ya, Sometimes I wonder if those are really consistent groupings or selected one time best groupings.

    I've tried just about everything I could think of to get tighter groups except different primers. I currently use Federal 215M. Bob suggested using different primers, Anybody got any advice on which type I should try.

    Also, the .270Wby is not bedded or anything. I am waiting for a new stock to be delivered. The one shown is temporary. So things can only improve with that rifle. Also, I gotta say, shooting the 11 lb .270wby is a dream when compared to my 8lb, .300Wby Light Weight. I never thought that 3 lbs could dampen out so much recoil. The .270 may not be a tack driver, but I am very happy with it. If I shoot cross canyon with that thing, I have very high confidence that I will hit my mark.

    By the way, also remember that all the targets I posted are development loads and not the final loads. So yes, some look bad but others are pretty good and the good ones are the keepers. Some have pretty tight 2 shot groups and the third is usually a little off. This could be a brass problem, or maybe it's me. I do use the vice like rest shown, so it pretty much takes me out of the equation, but you never know.

    If anybody has suggestions on tightening up my groups, I'm all ears.

    Regards,
    Vic
     
  10. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

    Messages:
    5,085
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2001
    A couple of things to look at.

    If you are using necked down brass then you should fire form it before load development.

    For a change in primers try Remington 91/2M. It will not cause any miracles to happen but might keep a few of the flyers from happening. Might make things worse. Nosler uses them for load testing

    Take the front and rear sling swivel studs off so they don’t catch on the bag during recoil.


    IMR4350, and RL22.

    Tighten up all of the action screws.

    At least five minutes between shots.
     
  11. Jon A

    Jon A Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,092
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2001
    [ QUOTE ]
    If anybody has suggestions on tightening up my groups, I'm all ears.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Personally, I wouldn't judge the gunsmithing/action/barrel/reloading quality at all until those things are properly bedded into decent stocks.
     
  12. chris matthews

    chris matthews Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    838
    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    As mentioned...trying differnt primers would help....I would get away from the mags and use standard primers. If it is putting two in a hole and then one out that could be a seating depth issue.
    Good bed jobs would also help a bunch...(no, I did not bed this one per his request)
    Getting bug hole groups takes the whole package, not just a new barrel.
     
  13. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

    Messages:
    6,848
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    I would agree with chris on this one. The 270 Wby was also not bedded and until it is you are really only doing velocity testing because the rifle will behave totally different with a quality bedding job and stable stock.

    I would also agree that for the case volumes you are using, there is really no need for a magnum primer, espeically with stick powders. With Ball powders in cold weather there are some benefits to the hot primers but not with stick powders and these case volumes.

    As long as you have a good load density with appropriate powders I would say start playing with seating depth and see what happens.

    More importantly, do not waste barrel life until you get both rifles properly bedded. As Chris correctly mentioned, tight groups are a product of a rifle that is properly fitted from head to toe. Get that done first and then start with some serious testing.


    Good SHooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  14. James Jones

    James Jones Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,854
    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2002
    Not trying to knock anybodys shooting ability but a question for Chris and Kirby

    What do you guys do when you put a gun together for a guys thats doesen't know how to use it?
    I have built a few guns,I'm buy no meens a "gun builder" but I have put a few together that shoot very well two were for other people that I diden't know their ability . One of the guys called me back realy pissed that his gun woulden't group better than 2" , I got the gun back and it would shoot consistanly in the 1/2" range with Blcak Hills ammo and several thrown together reloads, I sent it back with my findings and he is still pissed. The gun is a light weight 300Win mag that kicks pretty hard so I'm thinking that the recoil might be the problem

    Not to jack anybodys post but this one got me thinking about what a good builder does for shooter error?