Anyone ever reverse engineered HSM Trophy Gold ammo?

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Dr. Vette, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. Dr. Vette

    Dr. Vette Well-Known Member

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    I'm just getting into reloading, and my Sendero in 7mm Rem Mag currently shoots best with HSM Trophy Gold ammo with 168 gr Berger bullets. It beat out the Winchester ammo I've had as my best up until this year.

    I was wondering if anyone has every taken one apart and recognized the powder and/or primer components are used in 7mm HSM ammo? If so, would you mind sharing what they were? I'd love to make an exact copy of the factory ammo as a good place to start with my reloading.

    Thanks for any input you have!
     
  2. ICANHITHIMMAN

    ICANHITHIMMAN Well-Known Member

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    Bergers are super easy and you already have part of the puzzle figured out. Bergers are very sensitive to changes in seating depth you already know yours. Now you could call and ask, maybe they will tell you maybe not. If keep your seating depth the same and start throwing some charge weight and primer options at it.

    READ THE ARTICAL IN MY SIGNATURE LINE
     

  3. Trnelson

    Trnelson Well-Known Member

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    Factory ammo can be difficult to replicate. Several use proprietary blended powder that isn't available to the public. Usually you can find a set up that performs at least as well as the factory ammo because you can tune it specifically to your rifle. YMMV
     
  4. Dr. Vette

    Dr. Vette Well-Known Member

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    Generally I'd agree, but HSM is sort of unique in that it's not a large manufacturer like a Remington, Winchester, Hornady, etc. I highly suspect that they use a "normal" powder like H-1000, Retumbo or the like when they load the ammo unless they go through the trouble of having custom blends made - which I doubt based on the price. So, I was hoping that someone with more experience at identifying powders would have taken one of these apart.
     
  5. Trnelson

    Trnelson Well-Known Member

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    I have been reloading for more than 10 years in shot gun, several pistol, and rifle calibers. I enjoy shooting a bit of three gun and load all my own ammo. Through that experience I've acquired quite a selection of powders in my fire proof cabinet. Granted, I'm not a professional shooter or reloader but I do go through a fair amount of various powders. I can easily differentiate between rifle and pistol and sometimes pistol and shotgun, but there's quite a bit of overlap so some powders can go for either. However a lot of it looks very similar when you don't have direct means to ascertain precisely what powder it in fact is. I guess my point is I wouldn't ever trust simple visual identification of powder and call it gospel. I especially would be cautious of any advice as to that I got off the Internet. There may well be someone someplace who can do that but I don't think I'd bet my rifle and potentially my wellbeing on it. Best of luck, be safe. YMMV
     
  6. Dr. Vette

    Dr. Vette Well-Known Member

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    I know. I'm just trying to narrow down the possibilities. I have 3 powders here that I'll probably try but with all the experience here I figure it's worth asking. :)
     
  7. Trnelson

    Trnelson Well-Known Member

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    I can find no fault in asking. That's how we all learn more together. However this is a really tricky question. For the sake of an example I'll cite the spherical powders H414 and government surplus powder WC867. 414 is a medium slow powder 60g is a stiff load behind a 150g bullet in 30/06 and gets you pretty near to 3,000fps out of a 24" barrel and is a complete burn leaving little to no residue. The same 60g charge of the very slow burning WC867 (50bmg, 20mm powder, heavily overbore rifle) will yield maybe 2,100fps will be a terribly foul burn and most likely will not all ignite. Put each powder side by side on the bench in a tray and there is no visual difference I can perceive. YMMV
     
  8. Kevin Thomas

    Kevin Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Dr. Vette,

    You're being given some good advice here, and it's worth heeding. You can't make a visual ID of powders with anything close to a safe degree of certainty. HSM most definately IS large enough to make use of custom powders, and it's foolish to assume that this is a straight cannister grade powder that you can find at your local reloading shop.Bill (HSM) has loaded the contract ammo for the US Secret Service in years past, and isn't a stranger in the world of high-end custom loading operations. The Berger bullets are easy enough to figure out, and as has been mentioned, will be a good starting place for your OAL. But be careful with the powder charges, and cross reference the piss out of any potential combination BEFORE you start working up a load based on what you believe the powder to be. As I've said before, you're issued two eyes and ten fingers. No do-overs, no second chances once you screw up.
     
  9. Boss Hoss

    Boss Hoss Well-Known Member

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    Do not post much but this is something that I could not pass up----Canister Powders are not used very often by commercial companies. Never have been because of the cost.. You would be VERY SMART to forget what you are attempting to do because you could go BOOM..

    Kevin is probably the most informed individual on this board regarding this subject.... Pay Attention...
     
  10. Dr. Vette

    Dr. Vette Well-Known Member

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    Thanks guys. It seemed like an easy enough idea if they used the same powders as us normal people. :D

    Looks like I'll be buying a couple of boxes of their ammo as I don't have the time or interest right now to get loads for this rifle figured out given the accuracy I've got with the HSM product.
    Other loads and rifles are ahead of it in line.
     
  11. Aldon

    Aldon Well-Known Member

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    If I were to attempt reverse engineering, I would run factory ammo through a chronometer.

    Then I would take one and weigh the powder and then run through the data in QL and see if any of the listed powders looked close.

    If more than one does, then I would compare visually to see if one stood out as matching the velocity and weight calculation of QL as well as looked visually similar.

    In the end, you would still have to start low and work up to confirm your observations though.....

    In my view a lot more trouble than choosing a powder that is available that meets your criteria and simply working up to accuracy node and calling it done.

    I tend to try and use those powders that have decent density and are known to be temperature tolerant.
     
  12. Joe King

    Joe King Well-Known Member

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    I lived just a few miles from the Hunting Shack, before and after they moved to their current location. After what I witnessed one more than one occasion picking up various components there (SCARRRYYYYY)I would forget the idea of trying to reverse engineer any thing from them just do what we do. Research it, and work up your own.
     
  13. Dr. Vette

    Dr. Vette Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Joe.
    You didn't see them pouring H-1000 into any 7mm Rem casings did you? :D
     
  14. Joe King

    Joe King Well-Known Member

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    No but after I stopped to get a pound of 4064 and over heard them panic because they lost a 32#keg, I never went back either, that and the folks I saw working there that I knew to be methheads I wasn't going to stick around any longer than I had to either lol.