ammonia in coppermelt

Discussion in 'Equipment Discussions' started by Jimm, Jul 14, 2005.

  1. Jimm

    Jimm Writers Guild

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    I have some coppermelt and I was just wondering why it has stronger ammonia in it than Barnes CR10 ( it will tear your nose off if you give it a sniff)? I thought that the coppermelt was suppose to use enzymes to deal with the copper ? BTW I just compared the ingredients of Butches Bore Shine to GM TEC ( topengine cleaner ) guess what, they are the same! Except that the BUtches cost 4 times as much as the GM TEC.

    Not trying to do anything here except understand and go from there .

    Jim
     
  2. 7Rumloader

    7Rumloader Well-Known Member

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    jimm from what I understand the ammonia smell comes from the secreations of all the enzymes hince the strong smell.
    It's kinda like a bat cave (learned this on discovery channel) all the waste a bat leaves in the cave give off a terrible ammonia smell to the point of having to wear masks when exploring inside them!
    I may be wrong but this is what I gathered from reading studies on enzymes and watching the discovery channel.
     

  3. Jimm

    Jimm Writers Guild

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    Ahhh So Mr. Rum,

    I think I am learning here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif , Really , thanks for that , The product has a "made in Canada " label and only said "contains ammonia" on the label.
    As I said , only wanting to understand , and go from there .

    Jim
     
  4. 7Rumloader

    7Rumloader Well-Known Member

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    jimm I may be wrong but I think secreations from all living creatures contain or create an ammonia content ( I'm no biologist so don't quote me ) once excreeted.
    Take a cats litter box for example after a couple times urinating in the sand it gives off an ammonia smell.
    I also know that people urinating in the same spot say behind a bush in the park after a little time will do the same thing.
    Basicaly ammonia is a byproduct of the enzymes is what I been trying to say with my round about way of typing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    I know you mean no harm in your posts against coppermelt and were only curious to why the strong ammonia smell when enzymes are the main ingredient.
    The stuff works great for me!
     
  5. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    enzymes don't "secrete" anything /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    JB
     
  6. 4ked Horn

    4ked Horn Writers Guild

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    [ QUOTE ]
    enzymes don't "secrete" anything

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Well what else can you tell us about this? Do the enzymes have anything to do with the creation of the ammonia? Or are you trying to draw a distinction between secretions (like sweat) and byproducts (Like excrement)?

    I'm not sure what you are trying to help us know. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  7. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    4ked -- i guess i could have left the quotes out...wasnt a word usage issue.

    Enzymes are globs of protein with associated metals as cofactors.

    They dont excrete, secrete or otherwise.

    I dont see how the enzyme can "attack" the copper...so im not really sure what is going on here.

    Maybe copper is a required cofactor that makes the enzyme work...but what it is "working on" i dont know.

    Another thing that makes me nervous:

    This is obviously a buffered solution...BUFFER = SALT /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

    My GUESS is one of these enzymes may be relavent: http://www.expasy.org/cgi-bin/enzyme-search-cf?Copper

    Basic Enzyme info:
    http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/E/EnzymeKinetics.html
    http://www.science-projects.com/Tyrosinase.htm

    [DISCLAIMER] I have never used Coppermelt. Observations based on Biology only [/DISCLAIMER]

    That should protect me from the impending onslaught /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

    JB
     
  8. 4ked Horn

    4ked Horn Writers Guild

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    No onslaught coming from me. I will look at the links later when I have time. I always thought an enzyme was like a little living creature. A yeast or bacteria type thingy. Sounds like it it is more in the virus type of construction. Very interesting.

    When we met with Good groupers bunch we spoke of the coppermelt affecting steel. One of the guys said that they applied coppermelt to gunsteel (4140 and stainless I think) for a period of time and saw no sign of discoloration or damage.

    Maybe we can get whomever did the test to fill us in on the particulars of what they did and for how long.
     
  9. 7Rumloader

    7Rumloader Well-Known Member

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    Alright jb I'm not going to argue the biology point since it's been a loong time since biology class for me but I will say that I have seen no effects on steel after using it.
    I have a couple of guns that have not been fired since being cleaned with it almost a month ago and there is no rust or other thing taking place that I can see.
    I did not use an oiled patch behind coppermelt because GG said you didn't have to and also the directions stated it wasn't necessary unless you so desired.
    I do not intend to debate how the ammonia smell gets there because quote I'm not a biologist unquote and was only offering some info I picked up in different places.

    If enzymes secrete nothing then I stand corrected and I will check out your links when time permits to see what info is offered there.
    See no onslaught! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.... Yet! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  10. gonehuntingagain

    gonehuntingagain Well-Known Member

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    It has been a few years since my last biology class, but I'll take a stab at it....

    I think I know why there is ammonia in the coppermelt. We all know ammonia attacks copper, and an enzyme is a protein that 'accelerates' a reaction - so we an ammonia based cleaner that doesn't need to sit for hours to let nature take its course because the enzyme speeds up the reaction.

    With a true enzyme, once the reaction is over the enzyme is unchanged and goes back to its natural state - in theory we could add a little ammonia to the patches we used at a later time and use them again - too bad there is too much garbage on the patch to realistically do that.

    Enzymes can be affected by outside influences such as heat, UV light, cold, etc.


    Interestingly enough, a prion is also a protein and seems to be really tough to break down - and is the cause of Chronic Wasting Disease in deer/elk.
     
  11. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    This is obviously a buffered solution...BUFFER = SALT


    [/ QUOTE ]


    Yes. Obviously it is buffered, but I highly doubt that it is salt that they use. After one year of using this product I have yet to see salt on anything or anywhere. As 7rumloader mentioned, the directions clearly state that if you are going to shoot your gun within a few months, then you may leave the barrel clean without running oil down it. If you are going to store the gun for several months, then oil like normal.


    After all the typing that has been done on this stuff, we could have all just used the product by now and ended all this speculation long ago. Bottom line, if you like to type then keep wasting time on misdirected speculation. If you like to get your gun clean quick, then just burn a couple Andy Jacksons and end the bickering. (PLEASE)
     
  12. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    The smell is mostly the enzyme itself or the solution in which it is suspended. There is a very small ammonia content to Coppermelt but it is far less than CR-10.
     
  13. 7Rumloader

    7Rumloader Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    After all the typing that has been done on this stuff, we could have all just used the product by now and ended all this speculation long ago. Bottom line, if you like to type then keep wasting time on misdirected speculation. If you like to get your gun clean quick, then just burn a couple Andy Jacksons and end the bickering. (PLEASE)

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Amen GG!!
    I agree 100%
     
  14. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    When we met with Good groupers bunch we spoke of the coppermelt affecting steel. One of the guys said that they applied coppermelt to gunsteel (4140 and stainless I think) for a period of time and saw no sign of discoloration or damage.

    Maybe we can get whomever did the test to fill us in on the particulars of what they did and for how long.




    [/ QUOTE ]


    Absolutely. After all, I am here to help and I should because, save Roland, I have had more experience with this product than anyone on here so I will try my best to explain what we did.

    Roland and I both performed our own seperate experiments of Coppermelt at our first encounter with it. We each had a piece of barrel that had been cut off from one of our earlier projects. Mine was a Pac-nor stainless steel chunk and I forget what his was-maybe a chunk of SHilen. We then dropped several drops onto the barrel steel and let it sit for 1-2 nights. We also dropped some onto bullets for the same duration. After the time was up, neither steel had ANY discoloration of any kind. The bullets on the other hand had a thick coppery goo that had sluffed off from the tip down. We then decided at that point that it was safe enough to run in our custom barrels and the rest is history. After over a year for I and over 18 months for Roland, we are both still using and loving the stuff with <font color="red"> ABSOLUTELY </font> no harm to any of our rifles. The stuff just plain works, and believe you me, there are many companies investing all kinds of money trying to figure out HOW this stuff works but none have succeeded so far. They know what is in it from a chemical makeup diagnostic, but they can't figure out the process of incubations.