Advice needed

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Jaeger476, Sep 18, 2004.

  1. Jaeger476

    Jaeger476 Member

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    I recently discovered that my Remington Sendero 300 win mag (which was shooting about 1/3 MOA with handloads) had suffered damage to the rifling at the crown. Needless to say the accuracy went in the dumps. I sent the barreled action away to PGW Defence Technologies in Winnipeg, Manitoba to have it cut and crowned. When I received the rifle back they had cut approximately 3/4" off the end and cut a recessed muzzle crown with no bevel and lapped the bore. I set it back into the stock and tried it out. I wasn't expecting the handloads to group the same as they did but I didn't think that they would be shooting about 1 MOA [​IMG]. I tried a couple different loads a half grain up and down of the old load the only one that showed promise was the half grain up load. Should I keep trying to tweek the loads or should I try something else, I'm worried that if I keep going up in powder charge I'm going to get overpressure. I guaged the wear on the barrel to be about .003". The load I was using was 68.0 gr IMR 4350, 200 gr sierra BTSP seated .02" off the lands, winchester cases, 215M primers. Hunting season is here and I don't have a load that I can confidently shoot into the vitals of an animal over 400 yards.

    Anybody got any tips?
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Jaeger,

    When you have your barrel shortened, it vibrates differently and usually requires you to re-tune your loads. I think that you're headed in the right direction with the IMR-4350 but you will approach the high pressure level before you get it tuned.

    Personally, I would switch to either IMR-4831 and work up to 70.6 grains per the Sierra manual or try Re-22 and work your way up to the top load listed in the link below.

    Good luck!
    http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg.taf?_function=centerfire&step=2&bulletID=370&cartridgeID=1075&caliber=%2E300&cartridgedescr=Win%2E%20Mag%2E&bulletdescr=Sierra%20200%20Spitz%20B T
     

  3. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Jaeger476,

    This is a tough one, When I do all of my recrowning, I generally take off about 0.050" off the muzzle or enough to clean up any old crown contour there is.

    I much prefer an 11 degree crown which a add a couple things of my own.

    Did PGW give any explanation for the excessive barrel amputation?

    I have had to do this on factory barrels that were belled out but with your rifle shooting in the 1/3 moa range this was certainly not the case. Sounds like someone made a mistake and had to cut off more barre to fix it. Pretty hard to screw up a recrowning job though.

    If you came to my shop with this problem I would tell you to develope the load until you get the velocity to where it was before the problem, save 15-20 fps for the shorter barrel.

    THis will give you nearly the same pressure as before which your rifle obviously liked.

    Then I would start with your bullets seated where they are now and then test the load seated 0.005" less, then 0.005" less and 0.005" shorter still.

    BAsically, you want to keep the same pressure and velocity but you may have to find a new sweet spot for your load length as shortening your barrel by 3/4" seems to have effected the harmonics of your barrel.

    It may suprise you hwo your rifle will shoot with shorter lengths.

    If this does not work, I would be a little concerned about them lapping the bore. If done correctly, this really does not take any real amount of metal off the bore, just polishes what is there.

    IF done incorrectly, you can get buldges in your bore or actually over sized bores which will destroy your accuracy, especially if your bore is tighter at the throat then the muzzle end.

    This can be a real pain to figure out unless you make a muzzle case and measure your muzzle diameter.

    You can also take a lead bullet, pure lead is best that is close to .308 and drive it down your barrel from the chamber end.

    You will actually be able to feel any variations in bore diameter as you push the bullet down the length of the barrel. In the loose spots it will be much easier to move the slug.

    This is really to bad. A recrowning job should be one of the easiest accuracy enhancing proceedures to do. I only charge $15 to do it in my shop even with using live piloted bushings to match the crown to 0.0002" or less of the axis of the bore.

    There is just no reason to screw it up like this.

    This is a place to start, after that, may need a rebarrel job if the lapping washed your bore out to much.

    Not good news but its better to know then wonder!!

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Jaeger,

    Your rifle will shoot just fine. As I stated above, you just need to re-tune the load because the harmonics have changed. Nothing done to your rifle can be construed in any way as damage. Ross and Stephen know what to do to fix a rifle, there’s no doubt about that at all. If you need more information about what was done and for what reasons, please call Ross and get the best information straight from the gunsmith that did the work.

    Work on the new loads and if you need assistance, give a holler.


    Kirby,

    I want to get this over with now rather than wait for this to bother me more.

    Ross and Stephen of PGWDTI are friends of mine, personally and professionally. More than that, they are recognized for the quality of their work around the world. The language that you use to disparage their name and condemn their work is unacceptable. You know nothing about the rifle that got sent to them and you know nothing about the conversation that they had with their customer and you assume nothing but the absolute worst about their work.

    Quote: “This is really to bad.”

    Quote: “There is just no reason to screw it up like this.”

    Other gunsmiths that post on public forums have the good sense, good manners and common courtesy not to condemn a fellow gunsmith out of respect and professionalism. You, on the other hand, go out of your way to make the above statements with no validation whatsoever, but work off of assumptions, when the answer can be as simple and probable as re-tuning the load. Adjusting a load for a change in a barrel has been done hundreds of thousands of times in the past and will need to happen in the future. It’s not unusual at all.

    There is no reason to build a case against the gunsmith such as you have done except for unadulterated self-aggrandizement. You have taken advantage of this forum to use thinly veiled “answers” as a massive self-promotion campaign for your business. Len doesn’t seem to be bothered by it but I am. You need to get a new theme that isn’t so intensely self-centered. The rest of us have plenty of work simply because we strive to deliver the highest quality projects that we are capable of, consistently, one job at a time. We certainly don’t spend endless hours blowing our own horns trying to drag work in. All I can say is that I hope you outgrow this.

    I know, Len, you don't have to tell me. But it was making me nuts. If you have to pull this, so be it. Regards to you and I hope that your toast turns out O.K.!
     
  5. Jaeger476

    Jaeger476 Member

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    Crispin, I apologize if I came across the wrong way. I am in no way dis-satisfied with the work they did. In fact I am truly impressed with the amount of time it took them to finish the work. They had the work complete including the lapping of the bore which they did not charge me for within one day and believe me the job was truly professional. I assure you I will not be using any other gunsmiths in the future and would recommend them to anybody looking to have quality work done. I was merely looking for advice on the development of my load.

    If anybody might know how much wear is allowable on a barrel before it is time to replace it. And as the bore opens up slightly won't the pressure drop and more powder be required to maintain that "sweet spot"?
     
  6. Jaeger476

    Jaeger476 Member

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    In addition to the above post.

    The removal of 3/4" of barrel was required because there was ptting and damage inside the bore for almost a half inch at the muzzle. This I could see with a weak magnifying glass. As for changing powders I am going to see if I can add another half grain of powder and mess with the seating depth a little. I have had really good results with the 4350 in the past amd am reluctant to change until I've exhausted all my options first. Thanks for the input thus far guys I appreciate it.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Jaeger,

    There is absolutely no reason to apologize to me. I read your post and followed it O.K. and I'm glad that you're satisfied with th work.

    I'm on the fly right now but I'll be back after while and look at your load information if you'd like.

    Regards.
     
  8. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Crispin Goodall,

    I am sorry if I offended you with my post, I reread it and find nothing offensive at all from what I stated.

    I answered the question with all the possible problems that I could think of from the information give at the time.

    If the rifle was shooting 1/3 moa why would there be 3/4" taken off the barrel when obviously taking off just a few thousandths to clean up the crown would have done the job.

    ANSWER

    Because the end of the muzzle was pitted which was posted after my original response was it not.

    It is also very easy to over lap a bore to make it loose in spots. I have no experience with PGW and was not stating that they ruined this barrel, only that this could be another explination for why the consistancy of this barrel went south.

    The comment about "there is no reason to screw it up like this" was directed toward the unlikelyhood that recrowning would destroy the barrels accuracy potential if done with the right tools, not that PGW is not capable of performing this job as I know they are.

    Now that you have hammered me and questioned my intentions and motivations on this board please allow me to respond.

    I do not solicit on this board in any way unless asked for information directly by a poster or asked what a proceedure costs to do.

    I am a gunsmith and I respond on this board as such. Not selling my goods but offering my experience to those that ask a question that I feel I can be of some help with.

    The problem with the web is you can read into my posts whatever meaning you want to depending on your state of mind.

    I assure you that I was not directing flames toward PGWs and would not do that toward any other poster on this board unless defending my postion. Even then I will give my opinion and give one that is based on factual experience just as you would do.

    Obviously you did not read my response very well either as I stated the following:

    "Basically, you want to keep the same pressure and velocity but you may have to find a new sweet spot for your load length by shortening your barrel by 3/4" seems to have effected the harmonics of your barrel.

    IT MAY SUPRISE YOU HOW YOUR RIFLE WILL SHOOT WITH SHORTER LENGTHS."

    There is more before the quote in my original post which you obviously missed, I said the same damn thing as you.

    Then after that, I said:

    "If this does not work I would be a little concerned about the lapping of the bore."

    A problem was presented and with the information offered in the original post, I give my primary opinion of what would solve the problem, tayloring the load to the new barrel length, same as your suggestion.

    If that did not work then there would have obviously been more wrong with the rifle.

    Your right, I did not know alot of the information about the problem before I responded but I answered honestly about what could be causing the problem from a mechanical stand point and I stand by those comments, they all could cause a rifle to perform this way.

    I never did attack PGW, I never was building myself up at all, just answering the question as to what may be the problem, pure and simple.

    Appearantly we both look at our work in the same manor, let the rifle and handguns do the talking. I am just answering questions which I though was the point to this board.

    If I am new to the board and you feel I am stepping on your toes, I apologize but I enjoy talking with everyone on here and will continue.

    From the thanks I get from many of the posters i respond to I see no reason to stop helping answer questions that are answered.

    If I was blowing my own horn, would i not be starting the posts to draw attention to me? I only respond to asked questions as a whole.

    Your interpritaion of my posts is your problem, not mine.

    Again, you know as little about me as I do you, but you make just as many assumptions as you claim I do. If you truely knew me you would truely feel foolish for your comments toward me and toward my responses to all the posts on this board.

    You may know Len very well, I do not know him at all, but I have been around long enough to know that if I was offending the owner of LRH, I would have heard about it by now and asked to stop what I was doing.

    I am not looking for work, do you know what kind of head ache it would be to do work for a Canadian being a US gunsmith. I hve no reason to do this, I have no reason to drum up business this way.

    I enjoy taking guns, I enjoy long range shooting and I am more then willing to share any experience I have with anyone who asks, FREE OF CHARGE!! As will you I believe.


    If I offended you for some reason I am also sorry because I have never intended to do that.

    I would like you to point out my history of flaming other smiths please. Show me the posts and I will admit that I did it because I do not do this.

    Again, I was given certain information and asked a question on what could possibly be causing this. I gave a solid response which you refer to as, what was that, oh yes, "thinly veiled answers".

    Whatever you think fella.

    I hope someday you can get used to someone else answering questions along with you, the more the marrier in my book, to bad you feel I am stepping on your toes and offending every other smith on the planet at the same time.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  9. LB

    LB Well-Known Member

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    You have to write to the question. The question was not specific as to the damage or the reason for the damage. Three quarters of an inch is a lot of material to remove in a recrown job, and it allows a lot of room for conjecture. I see "harmonics" as a very dubious reason for the degrade in accuracy. That much difference, unless the problem is made by hanging a straight cylinder three feet long, seems to this observer to be excessive. I'd still want to know the reason for the mysterious damage to the front end, and why the bore was lapped, given the fact that this was a proven shooter, in the first place?

    I don't think fifty is shilling for business. I think the board is fortunate that professional technical people are willing to comment, give opinion (free advice) and thereby stick their neck out. Everything I have read, in my short time on this forum, by this gentleman, has been positive and helpful.

    In other words, given what he had to work with, he listed several possibilities and called a spade a spade. I think that the shop that did the work should take another look at it, before the owner wears it out looking for a sweet spot.

    Good hunting. LB
     
  10. Jaeger476

    Jaeger476 Member

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    While I'm at it I might as well ask this as well. I'm sure it's been asked before but here goes. Based on the load data above, approximately how many shots will a case last before I should toss it. I'm finding that when I'm loading shells for their fourth go around the primers are starting to slide in easier than before is this a sign that they should be replaced?
     
  11. LB

    LB Well-Known Member

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    two things, Amigo. How did you damage the muzzle; and why did the shop lap the bore? Is this a factory barrel?

    In my opinion, your brass life is unacceptable and it should be replaced and your load, in your gun, is probably too hot. Considering all the case prep work, I'd like to get at least six and more likely eight firings per case. Do you have associated signs, flattened or cratered primers?

    There is such a thing as barrel harmonics, though, and experimenting with the powder; all things being equal, will show varying degrees of accuracy. The conventional wisdom is that Magnum chamberings shoot better with a max load. My particular 300 Win opens up the group with max charges of IMR4350, but not H4831. As you know, each gun is different.

    BTW, your shop will survive any small criticism it receives here, in spite of concerns to the contrary. [​IMG]

    Good luck, LB
     
  12. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Jaeger476,

    Your load seems a little hot to me. This is a result of using a bit to fast a burning powder for this round bullet combo.

    You can certainly use 4350 with such a load but there is much more likelyhood that you will get into pressure problems then with powders such as IMR-4831, H-4831 or Rl-22. Of the three I would choose H-4831 as it is better suited for wide temp changes without large velocity variations.

    If your primers are feeling a bit loose after four firings, I feel you are puching this load about 100 fps to fast with the 4350 powder.

    More then likely you could reach the same velocities you are getting now with a slightly heavier charge of the slower burning powders and do so with less pressure and usually better velocity spreads.

    I look to get at least 6 firings per case with a belted magnum. If accuracy is great I will live with 5 firings but geneally I like at least 6.

    One thing to remember using a VLD style bullet, velocity does not mean squat in teh whole skeem of things.

    At extreme range the difference of 100 fps at the muzzle is basically meaningless out past 300 yards and generally it will add roughly three firings per case to your brass life.

    My recommendation, try a bit slower powder and see what happpens with your case life.

    As far as accuracy goes, if you can not find a load the rifle likes quickly, I agree with LB in that I would not burn the barrel out trying to find that magic load. It should not be that hard to find a good load quickly the way your rifle shot before the work.

    If you can not find the accuracy you want get ahold of PGW and I am sure they will figure the problem out for you just as any quality shop would.

    Good Shooting!!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  13. Jaeger476

    Jaeger476 Member

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    I'm not seeing any flattened primers or craters, the bolt is not much stickier after firing than before. I am also not seeing any leakage around the primers. I think I will probably try the H4831 unfortunately it is a four hour drive to get any from where I live. As for how the damage to the bore occured I have no idea I've racked my brain trying to figure it out but I couldn't come up with anything. The only thing I can say is that the particular section of the barrel that suffered damage always had a few tiny pits (like pin pricks) inside the bore (it came this way from the factory). When I contacted the Remington service department they told me if it was still shooting great I shouldn't worry about it. Not wanting to mess with the accuracy I was getting out of it I left it (would you want to mess with 1/3 MOA accuracy out of a stock factory rifle?). When I contacted the factory after I discovered the damage they told me it was possible that it was a flaw in the steel but they would have to check it at the factory or an authorized Remington repair shop (minimum two months in any of these situations) so I found a reputable gunsmith and sent it to them instead.
     
  14. Jaeger476

    Jaeger476 Member

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    What is the correct sequence and wieght for torquing action screws? I have always been taught that the screws were to be tightened to 65 inch pounds in that particular type of stock (kevlar reinforced fiberglass with aluminum bedding block).