Actions for LRH rifle

Discussion in 'The Basics, Starting Out' started by LopezLad, Jan 17, 2012.

  1. LopezLad

    LopezLad Member

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    Between 8 years in the service and 8 years as a Federal LE officer I have done a bit of shooting. That said this long range stuff is new to me and has my attention. I am not a gunsmith nor claim to be. My question is with all of the LR rifles I am seeing out there they are built on Rem. 700 or custom actions for the most part, Savage seems to be getting a little bit of play time but Winchester and Ruger are never mentioned. I had a Ruger Mark II in .338 win. mag. that was the best shooting rifle I ever owned (never should have got rid of that). So is there some flaw in the Win. and Rugers actions that make them not liked in this area of shooting? This may be a dumb question but...if I don't ask I won't know. Any feedback is welcome, thanks.
     
  2. J E Custom

    J E Custom Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing wrong with the Winchester and the Ruger actions but there are likes and dislikes

    The Ruger has the slanted recoil lug that can make them difficult to make them accurate and
    unpredictable. There are some smiths that have figured them out and have good luck.

    Some people don't like the fact that the Ruger actions are cast instead of forged.

    Winchesters have had a lot of quality control problems and this has turned many against
    them. (All factory rifles have this problem to some degree but some are consistantly worse.

    The bottom line to the Remington and Savages popularity is the amount of after market parts
    and there tendency to respond well to any kind of accurizing.

    This is just my opinion
     

  3. LopezLad

    LopezLad Member

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    Thanks for your reply. That makes perfect sense to me. I have never paid close attention to those details.
     
  4. Derek M.

    Derek M. Well-Known Member

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    I'd say the 700 is the STANDARD by which all custom actions were designed. It is a nice round action and easy to work with. Savage is likely the second most popular. You'll find more Winchester fans for non-long range rigs on sites like accuratereloading.com. Personally I think they are OK. I have a Ruger with a Hart barrel on it and the only reason I did that is because it was my first lefty rifle and I've killed a lot of stuff with it. Still have it, still shoot it.

    There is argument as to cost of buying a donor rifle Remington 700 just to turn around and use only the action and bottom metal, follower, spring to build a custom versus just buying a custom action from the get go.

    I have decided that my 700 days are over. I'm not buying any more donor actions to be trued. I'm going custom actions from Stiller, Borden, BAT, and maybe Defiance. Haven't decided on the last one yet.

    Rugers are what I call work-horse guns. They'll do the job of any rifle within 300 yards easy, and that's if they don't even shoot that well. But Ruger has always been a hit or miss. My very first rifle was a Ruger M77 RIGHT hand and I had it for 3 months before trading it on a Lefty MK II. That first one was literally a tack-driver with factory ammo. Most all the time bullet holes touched at 100 yards. I didn't realize what I had and was too young and too inexperienced to know that I had a winner and that most rifles don't do that.

    I've bought 2 Rugers in my life, well one, then traded on the second plus twenty bucks. I'll never buy another. They are simply not the action to work with if you want a great custom rifle, IMO.
     
  5. COBrad

    COBrad Well-Known Member

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    As has been mentioned, the 700 is the standard, but after buying a donor rifle and having the action trued, you will be at, or very near, the cost of a custom. I've had rifles built on the 700, one on an old Jap Arisaka, a Ruger, a model 70, and an aluminum sleeved AMT single shot. Some shot well, one of the Rem 700 and the model 70 did not. Action? Barrel? Operator error? (naw, couldn't be). My latest is being built with a BAT HR. It is a serious LR rifle, so seems fitting to have the best... for only another $400.
     
  6. J E Custom

    J E Custom Well-Known Member

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    This is not to sturr up trouble but just to clear this up about the factory action cost compared
    to the custom action.

    I looked at as many custom actions as I could find for a compairson and hear is what I found.

    The bottom price I found for a custom action was $925.00 the top price was $1770 for a basic
    action.

    So if you buy the cheapest custom action=$925.00 and buy an after market trigger $100.00
    to $240.00(Jewell) and add the bottom metal $140.00 you have invested $1165.00 at this point.

    If you buy a donor like the Rem 700 SPS just for the action you will spend $370+ tax for an ADL
    and $430.00 for a BDL (Add $80.00 dollars for a stainless one and you have the trigger and
    bottom metal for A stainless action (Same as most custom actions).

    Now add the blue printing and most smiths will do this for $100.oo to $150.oo dollars.

    Now take the stock and sell it for $25.00 and the barrel for $50.00 dollars(New Stainless take off).
    And you can take that off of the purchase price or the blue printing bringing the price down to
    $585.00 total dollars for the Donor.

    The remington now has a good trigger(Not a great one but adjustable)The X mark Pro. so unless
    you want a Jewell it will do a good job especally for no more money.

    Barrels and stocks add up to the same unless you have to have a special inletting done for the
    custom action.

    To sum up = Custom action $1165 + a possible Blue printing anyway (They are not all perfict)
    or a Donor= Remington Action=$585.00 Blue Printed with everything but the barrel and stock.
    For a difference of $580.00 dollars.(Almost Half price).

    So if you can afford or want a custom action by all means use one to build on.

    If you can't afford a custom one then have a factory used as a donor. IT IS BETTER TO HAVE A
    CUSTOM RIFLE THAT SHOOTS THAN HAVE A FACTORY THAT DOESENT.

    Potentially there is no difference in the accuracy potential of ether if properly Smithed. the chamber,
    barrel quality and the crown are the difference.

    There are certain braging rites and prestige that come with a Custom actioned rifle, but accuracy
    has it's own requirements and the type of action has little or nothing to do with it. So dont let the
    difference in price keep you from building an accurate rifle (That's the smiths job).

    The numbers are not skewed in favor of eather custom or factory Action and were priced just
    as posted.

    Actually the best action to use is one that you have already paid for that wont shoot and is not
    getting any use. A blueprinting and custom barrel install will be less than any other build.

    J E CUSTOM
     
  7. COBrad

    COBrad Well-Known Member

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    That's a better price than I have actually been quoted by the smith's I spoke with about my latest build. Now, I was talking with smiths who are building the entire rifle, not piecing it together with different guys doing different parts of the build.
     
  8. J E Custom

    J E Custom Well-Known Member

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    That is the best way to go (One smith doing all the work and being responsible for it).

    I don't like doing part of a job because I dont know how well the rest of the work has been
    done and because if I build it complete then I can expect results.

    Some smiths are higher and I am sure that some are lower. Set up time and labor is the basis
    of these prices and they are real and fair.

    There is one of the best smiths on this site that does it for less because he has all the best tools
    and knows the work involved and must be faster than me. So again, it is what i is.

    I will say this, some smiths will charge more for something they dont realy want to do for
    one reason or another. Mostly they dont believe in doing it or they fear it will be detrimental
    to accuracy and dont have faith in doing it.

    There are a few that I dont like because my hourly rate is based on Remingtons style actions
    and they can take twice as long, lowering an already low price the by over half.

    The main thing is to be happy with your smiths quality, schedule and price before you start and
    that you know the value of the work being performed for you.

    J E CUSTOM
     
  9. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Counterpoint time

    Let's get real. No one is doing a complete action blueprint that will put it remotely close to a custom especialy for $100-150 but that is the myth that is constantly being perpetuated. You will get the front of the rcvr, lugs and maybe the threads. Forget bolt and raceway work. Forget extractor, bolt release or similar standard features of the custom.

    The term blueprinting is not defined and only means what that one Smith wants it to. That is 99% of the problem with saying blueprinting. A "complete action blueprint" to include raceway and bolt work will cost a minimum of $400-600 and still never be as good as the custom. It will not be as reliable and cost as much if not more when you look at the features between the two.

    A $100-150 blueprint is really a waste of money when you consider it does nothing for reliability with the stupid Remington riveted extractor that will break. My last rem action (new) extractor broke twice on hunts after being fixed at gbe factory. Now if your idea of a fun hunt is carrying a magazine single shot rifle and a cleaning rod to knock each case then go that route.

    My last custom was a Tooley Orion. Cost was $850 to me and in last year. Came with fluted bolt with M16 extractor, extended and threaded by handle all melonite coated. Extended bolt release, pinned heavy recoil lug and 8x48 scope base holes. Cut for aftermarket magazjne systems also.

    There is NO comparison in smoothness and reliability nor will that enter in the discussion for $150.

    Is reliability a factor for you?

    Forget the $1700 actions as there are a ton below. $1000. Tooley, Stiller, Defiance, Pierce, Haverkamp and Kelby for example.

    Kelby just announced a complete custom factory rifle built on their Atlas action, Krieger barrel etc for $2300 ready to ship. Anyone here prepared to match that?

    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...blys-atlas-custom-rifle-and-40th-super-shoot/

    IMO the bottom line is you will never come out ahead $ wise, never reliability and smoothness wise and always regret letting that Smith talk you into it reworking a remington.

    More and more smiths are recognizing it is not cost effective and good for the customer to rework actions when you factor in the things you should when you compare the numerous quality actions readily available today.

    Look at this action for example and ask yourself which would you rather have on your build and where is your money best spent?

    http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f37/tooley-orion-action-pics-requested-56798/
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2012
  10. J E Custom

    J E Custom Well-Known Member

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    This is so opinionated that I wont even comment on it except to say that I do know what a trued
    action requires and that does include bolt work. But the extractor and ejector has nothing to
    do with truing an action and if you dont like the Remington extractor, Change it !

    I personally have never had a extractor of any kind fail in 50 years of shooting matches and
    hunting, Because I have good chambers, and well maintained and cleaned rifles and I dont
    overload ammo that will over stress the rifle. I have however seen all types of extractors fail
    when hammered on to get a stuck case out from over loaded or poorly loaded ammo.

    And if you are paying $400.00 to $600.00 for blueprinting a remington I don't blame you
    for going with a custom action. Where I come from that's called RAPE and you need a new
    gunsmith.

    I am very sorry if I am under charging and wish that I could justify charging
    $600.00 for a complete truing but the time is just not there and dont believe in non
    consensual Sex.

    Thanks for your personal attack though, and for trashing a good thread with lots of "different"
    opinions.


    J E CUSTOM
     
  11. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    JE
    At the time of this conversation with me about blueprinting, it was $200 for the above.

    Now we are down to $100-150?

    So yes I am opinionated on this type information being thrown out as being realistic with most smiths as something defined 50 different ways. To me a complete action blueprint covers it all, otherwise it is just piece meal work being "marketed" as a complete blueprint. Apply that same philosophy to engine blueprinting and try to sell it. You would be laughed out of town, but for some reason people try to make it acceptable in gunsmithing and it is all marketing.

    Now if that is all that can be spent, OK and understand you will be back for more later.

    I am also so glad you superior and economical gunsmith skills are only surpassed by your internet xray problem solving skills. FYI, the first extractor broke on the third shot of factory ammo and the second on less than 30 shots of ammo that was not overpressure. So just because you have not seen it does not mean it does not happen.

    Also if blueprinted 700s were as good as customs as you say repeatedly, the firing lines at the top matches would be filled with them, but we all know that is not the case for good reasons.

    As for the rape comment, no I and no one else is paying $400-600 for piecemeal work, but a real complete action blueprint that adds most of the features a custom has will run that and more. But the fact that you do not see bolt face work and extractor replacement, bolt fluting, ext bolt handles, trueing raceways as costing anything, needed and have no benefit when comparing a slightly modified remington to a custom, I can understand your confusion on that. Trust me, the smiths I use are the best and know how to really put a top notch gun together.


    Anyway that is all part of the discussion and other side of the story from what you advocate.
     
  12. dig

    dig Well-Known Member

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    I have never had a Remington 700 extractor fail and have hunted with them all over from -20 in the Yukon to -115 in Namibia to 10 soaked days in Alaska. I always hear the extractor is a weakness and have had two smiths I use try to convince me to change to sako or m16 style. I have done one with a sako extractor and it has not proved better than the Remy to date, hope I am not proved wrong. A custom action (Stiller and Nesiaka, owned) are works or art and there are features I like, like the bolt release and lock up smoothness; However, they have not shot any better than my rebarelled Remy's. My two best shooters have been rebareled Weatherby's with out action work. It's all a matter of economics, you can pick up some pretty inexpensive used Remy's at shows or in stores my last purchase was $350.00. But for the big stuff the costum actions is probably the best choice.

    Why do we always compare the BR guys (I do it too, so no offense)? Should'nt we be looking at the action shooters, or precission hunting shooters? I can't see carrying one of those monster BR guns to the feild.

    All things considered you can buy a hell of an accurate complete new Savage for about the costs of purchasing or accurizing a Remmy. Yes I think they are ugly but the new ones sure shoot and there are a lot of aftermarket parts. Savage is my recommendation to any new to the sport.
     
  13. LopezLad

    LopezLad Member

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    Thanks for all of the input guys. I was not trying to get a heated discusion going here. Just looking for opinions on actions. I am pretty sure of what I am going to do at this point. All of this has helped and hope to see you all in future posts.
     
  14. ken snyder

    ken snyder Well-Known Member

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    J E CUSTOM pretty much said my thoughts on this subject. I think also that the general shooting public is a million monkeys doing what they seen another monkey do and business is based off of volume of sales. There are too many differences in feed types, safety types and safety lever locations even extractors and ejectors and locking bolts or not! - Way too many extreme differences to actually have a universal advantage - Here we have the million monkeys again