Action for .338 Lapua
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308 Hawg
Well-Known Member
Dan Lilja, Dave Tooley, Jim Borden and others say NOT to use the Rem 700. However... I have a friend that has shot several hundred rounds in one that has been a .338 Lapua Imp., has a 30" X 1.45 dia. barrel, Heavy 1000 yard bench gun. He also puts the bolt in another action with another barrel and fireforms his .338-416 Rigby Imp. brass for his Weatherby MkV hunting rifle. He fired the "fireform" barrel one time w/o the brake, by accident. It weighs about 7#, big ouch! I will use a Geske action or a Sako TRG-S for the big cases. The 700 works but I choose not to go there.
G
Guest
Guest
Prairie gun works M18 works for the 338 Lapua. I order one a few months back and it should be finished in the next several weeks. I looked at the Timberwolf and the LRT-2, but I prefer a hunting stock and the M-18 is sized like a remington action so I could use it with a Mcmillian Remington Hunter Stock. Otherwise I would have had to use a tactical stock.
I'll post results when I get the completed rifle in November.
I'll post results when I get the completed rifle in November.
I'm having a 338 Lapua bult on a CZ550 action. The action comes from the factory in a 416 Rigby chambering so no problem. Don't know about a "Lefty" model.
George Gardner is building it for me, give him a call about a left hand version.
George Gardner is building it for me, give him a call about a left hand version.
G
Guest
Guest
Paal, sorry I didn't see that you are a lefty. I am lefty also. Prairie Gun Works makes their actions in left or right hand.
Sucks being a lefty sometimes!
Sucks being a lefty sometimes!
chris matthews
Well-Known Member
I'm going to stir the pot here and say the Rem is definitely strong enough for the Lapua. Opening the bolt face is no problem and leaves about 0.050" material around the case. The "three rings of steel" is a bunch of crap. Mausers and a bunch of other actions don't have it.
If it wasn't strong enough, I sure in the hell wouldn't have built one for my wife on a Rem.
Give George Gardner a call at GA Precision, he's built a bunch of 'em on Rem for people.
If it wasn't strong enough, I sure in the hell wouldn't have built one for my wife on a Rem.
Give George Gardner a call at GA Precision, he's built a bunch of 'em on Rem for people.
Steve Shelp
Well-Known Member
As in any engineered "gadget" there is always a margin of safey built into it. The question is not whether a Rem 700/338 Lapua combo will shoot or not, but how much of that margin of safety you want to eat up in pushing the envelope?
I personally know Dave Tooley and Jim Bordon both. I don't beleive neither say if you do it, that this combo is going to blow up on the first shot. Obviously there are rifles out there that are working. Even though I'm putting words in thier mouths, I believe what they are saying is that it's too marginal in case something does go wrong and you cross "the line". How much of the "safety margin" do you have left so that you will be able to shoot another day is the point?
Also what about the long term affects of setting back the lugs and extra case stretch from lack of support? Jim Bordon documented this in an article several years ago with the Winchester action's 1" tenon thread diameter when using (I think??) 404 case heads. Remington tenon threads are bigger than the Winchester. But the Lapua/Rigby case head is about .040" to .045" larger then the Jefferies case also. So the differencees somewhat offset each other.
The "three rings of steel" is a bunch of crap. Mausers and a bunch of other actions don't have it.
I 100% disagree with this statement. The "three rings of steel" don't nessaccarily make the Remington action stronger to handle more PSI. Every action has 2 rings of steel. That's a given. The third ring on the Remington is made to upset during a case head failure and seal the gases from coming backward inside the couterbore of the barrel itself.
The brass case is the weakest link in the firing system. So if you take the first ring from the bolt face and make it so thin that gas will just blow right through it upon a massive case head failure you just took one of the most important safety aspects of the Remington action out of the equation. Remember to wear your safety glasses.
The sealing capability of the first ring of steel has been documented many times with some amazing stories. Love'um or hate'um... Remington actions are good from a safety point of view. Interesting enough it was this design and lack the ability of opening up the bolt face anymore to maintain the internal extractor on the bolt face that lead Remington to rebate the 404 J case head and come out with the Ultra Mag case. But in order to do this on the Remington action with a std 404 J case head diameter, you have to install a Sako extractor and break the first ring of steel. So it saved Remington money from redesigning or modifying existing actions and they kept this safety aspect in tact by using the rebated head and still used the larger case head diameter for more horsepower.
Steve
I personally know Dave Tooley and Jim Bordon both. I don't beleive neither say if you do it, that this combo is going to blow up on the first shot. Obviously there are rifles out there that are working. Even though I'm putting words in thier mouths, I believe what they are saying is that it's too marginal in case something does go wrong and you cross "the line". How much of the "safety margin" do you have left so that you will be able to shoot another day is the point?
Also what about the long term affects of setting back the lugs and extra case stretch from lack of support? Jim Bordon documented this in an article several years ago with the Winchester action's 1" tenon thread diameter when using (I think??) 404 case heads. Remington tenon threads are bigger than the Winchester. But the Lapua/Rigby case head is about .040" to .045" larger then the Jefferies case also. So the differencees somewhat offset each other.
The "three rings of steel" is a bunch of crap. Mausers and a bunch of other actions don't have it.
I 100% disagree with this statement. The "three rings of steel" don't nessaccarily make the Remington action stronger to handle more PSI. Every action has 2 rings of steel. That's a given. The third ring on the Remington is made to upset during a case head failure and seal the gases from coming backward inside the couterbore of the barrel itself.
The brass case is the weakest link in the firing system. So if you take the first ring from the bolt face and make it so thin that gas will just blow right through it upon a massive case head failure you just took one of the most important safety aspects of the Remington action out of the equation. Remember to wear your safety glasses.
The sealing capability of the first ring of steel has been documented many times with some amazing stories. Love'um or hate'um... Remington actions are good from a safety point of view. Interesting enough it was this design and lack the ability of opening up the bolt face anymore to maintain the internal extractor on the bolt face that lead Remington to rebate the 404 J case head and come out with the Ultra Mag case. But in order to do this on the Remington action with a std 404 J case head diameter, you have to install a Sako extractor and break the first ring of steel. So it saved Remington money from redesigning or modifying existing actions and they kept this safety aspect in tact by using the rebated head and still used the larger case head diameter for more horsepower.
Steve
chris matthews
Well-Known Member
Steve,
I understand what you are saying about the margin of safety, and I agree that it is up to a person to decide how much he or she needs.
But the case will not stretch due to lack of support. The recess into the breech on a Rem. is typically 0.150" deep, if you measure the extractor groove on 338 Lapua brass it is about 0.130" from the start of the groove to the back of the head. This means that the whole case would be supported inside the chamber . I don't know of any cartridge(rimless) that the extractor groove is fully supported by the chamber. If the chamber is headspaced properly how or where is this case going to stretch?
I had a long talk with the owner of Badger Ordnance about this very subject a week ago, because I just built one on the Rem and the best gunsmithing school in the country said it can't be done and it stirred up alot of stink (the instructors get a little ****y when a student proves them wrong
)
Anyhow that man knows more about the Lapua than anybody in this country (he developed the Dakota action for the Finnish goverment when they first designed the silly thing) and I am merely passing along his expertise. I am not claiming to be an expert gunsmith but I get my info from the expert's. He said he would be more than happy to pass this info along to anybody else, just give him a call.
Also, according to him, the bolt head rarely obdurates (SP?) upon catastrophic failure. The pressure travels through the action in ways you wouldn't understand without 15 engineering degrees.
As far as lug set back- I have personally seen a Rem action on it's SECOND barrel chambered for the Lapua. The second barrel has over two thousand rounds through it. Abusolutely NO measurable setback.
Like I said I'm not trying to start a ****ing match, but simply pass along info and maybe clear up a misconception. Plus he's a lefty and Rem. lefty actions are easier to find than most.
I might not have kept all of the facts straight in translation from Marty's and I conversation, but he can clarify anything I might have jumbled and can explain it better.
If I am wrong I'll be the first one to admit it and will quickly extend any apologies that are needed.
[ 10-14-2002: Message edited by: chris matthews ]
I understand what you are saying about the margin of safety, and I agree that it is up to a person to decide how much he or she needs.
But the case will not stretch due to lack of support. The recess into the breech on a Rem. is typically 0.150" deep, if you measure the extractor groove on 338 Lapua brass it is about 0.130" from the start of the groove to the back of the head. This means that the whole case would be supported inside the chamber . I don't know of any cartridge(rimless) that the extractor groove is fully supported by the chamber. If the chamber is headspaced properly how or where is this case going to stretch?
I had a long talk with the owner of Badger Ordnance about this very subject a week ago, because I just built one on the Rem and the best gunsmithing school in the country said it can't be done and it stirred up alot of stink (the instructors get a little ****y when a student proves them wrong
Anyhow that man knows more about the Lapua than anybody in this country (he developed the Dakota action for the Finnish goverment when they first designed the silly thing) and I am merely passing along his expertise. I am not claiming to be an expert gunsmith but I get my info from the expert's. He said he would be more than happy to pass this info along to anybody else, just give him a call.
Also, according to him, the bolt head rarely obdurates (SP?) upon catastrophic failure. The pressure travels through the action in ways you wouldn't understand without 15 engineering degrees.
As far as lug set back- I have personally seen a Rem action on it's SECOND barrel chambered for the Lapua. The second barrel has over two thousand rounds through it. Abusolutely NO measurable setback.
Like I said I'm not trying to start a ****ing match, but simply pass along info and maybe clear up a misconception. Plus he's a lefty and Rem. lefty actions are easier to find than most.
I might not have kept all of the facts straight in translation from Marty's and I conversation, but he can clarify anything I might have jumbled and can explain it better.
If I am wrong I'll be the first one to admit it and will quickly extend any apologies that are needed.
[ 10-14-2002: Message edited by: chris matthews ]
308 Hawg
Well-Known Member
I'll add a couple of additional thoughts on the Rem/Lapua issue. You can open the threads on a Remington to 1.09 or 1.1 major dia. when truing the threads. That gives you more material around the chamber. Using a Sako type extractor has been done on thousands of Rem actions but I'm still not comfy with them. They CAN be blown out and can cause serious personal injury. Nobody that shoots left handed is permitted to shoot any of my Sako'd Remingtons. Yes, I've shot .338 Laupas and .338-416 Rigby Imp's. on Remington 700/721s but a TRG-S or Enfield would be a better choice from a safety standpoint.
There were articles in Tactical Rifle (Precision Shooting Publishing) on the development of the .338 Lapua. The articles documented Remingtons efforts in this caliber. The rifle was called an SR8 and looked just like a Remington 700 with a "Sako type extractor". One is offered for sale on snipercountry.com classifieds, ocassionally.
There were articles in Tactical Rifle (Precision Shooting Publishing) on the development of the .338 Lapua. The articles documented Remingtons efforts in this caliber. The rifle was called an SR8 and looked just like a Remington 700 with a "Sako type extractor". One is offered for sale on snipercountry.com classifieds, ocassionally.
If anyone is interested Armalite is looking at making a limited run of their AR-30 actions. That normally comes in the 338 lapua. This action is normally for a magazine and their proprietery rifles, however they were here on base for a military equipment expo and said they wanted to break into 1000 yd Br and so they were planning to make some single shot actions on the AR 30 receiver. Might want to contact them and let them know you are interested. Seeing as how the whole gun retails for $1350 I would think the action would sell for $400-600 probably.
Steve Shelp
Well-Known Member
Chris,
Understood and let me say up front there was never any intent of a "contest" from my perspective either. Below is my thoughts on this.
understand what you are saying about the margin of safety, and I agree that it is up to a person to decide how
much he or she needs.
That's really all I really wanted to state by making the post above. We're here to talk about LRH and acccurate rifles. As long as people have info from boths side of this debate to makeup thier own minds, is all I really wanted.
But the case will not stretch due to lack of support.
I disagree with that and here's why. I went and dug up the article that I referenced above that Jim Bordon wrote to make sure I had my facts straight and not relaying on memory. What Jim found when using 404 cases in minimum chambers in M70 actions is the barrel tenon stub of the M70 action would expand a certain amount due to elasticity and the brass case would expand with it. Then the steel would want to snap back back more than the brass and cause very tight extraction of the case. It was litterly causing a shrink fit of the case head in the chamber due to the lack of support of steel around the case head. This would only happen in tight chambers when the chamber was cut .002 or less larger in diameter than the sized cases. He didn't reference the brand of 404 cases this was found with though.
So with the 404 case your talking a case head of .540"?? and a nominal tenon diameter of 1" (leaving out the actual root thread diameter to keep it simple) on the M70 action. Now you take a Remington 1 1/6 tenon thread diameter which is .060 larger than a Win M70 and add in a case that is roughly .040" larger in diameter you end up with a little better barrel tenon -to- case head diameter ratio so it would be better than the M70 with all else being equal. Plus the toughness of these Lapua 338 cases is unbeleivable. My Norma brass shows pressure and extraction problems before the Lapua stuff I have. Just making sure everyone is aware that this can happen. Please don't misunderstand this to say it is happening in this M700/338 Lapua scenerio. Jim has the calculations in the article that I went back and dug up, so if someone is interested I can send it to them for thier own curiosity. But it does happen under certain circumstances.
The recess into the breech on a Rem. is typically 0.150" deep, if you measure the extractor groove on 338 Lapua brass it is about 0.130" from the start of the groove to the back of the head. This means that the whole case would be supported inside the chamber . I don't know of any cartridge(rimless) that the extractor groove is fully supported by the chamber.
agreed. No case is supported 100% becasue of the mechanical action of having to grab the case to extract it from the chamber.
If the chamber is headspaced properly how or where is this case going to stretch?
see explaination above. This same concept is also the reason you have to shoulder bump cases after several firings. The case can not get bigger than the container it is inside of, unless the container (the chamber) grows upon firing then returns to it's original size and crushes the brass case. This is the stickness you feel upon extraction.
I am not claiming to be an expert gunsmith but I get my info from the expert's.
I'm not either. Sounds like you and I work on the same principles. Jim Bordon has a pretty respectable list of engineering/gunsmithing credentials also among other repsectable LR smiths I know.
As far as lug set back- I have personally seen a Rem action on it's SECOND barrel chambered for the Lapua. The second barrel has over two thousand rounds through it. Abusolutely NO measurable setback.
Remington actions do setback and it has been observed more than once. When and why it happens to one action and not another...? I don't know and really can't exlain it either. Stacking of tolerenaces, variance of heat treating, etc, etc??? It does happen so I stay on the side of keeping a large safety margin to begin with. I don't doubt you do have an action with no setback and can't and won't disagree with you.
Like I said I'm not trying to start a ****ing match, but simply pass along info and maybe clear up a misconception.
same here Chris I just happen to sit on the opposite side of the table from you on this issue. If you beleive this can be done and want to do it beleive me I won't stop you and hope you continue to have fun shooting with your wife. I wish mine would take more interest in shooting, but she just won't take the bait. I keep buying guns for her though! ;^) The professionalism and experience of people on this message board is great, but this is a public forum and you never know if someone less educated in guns reads this and has a local smith that doesn't have the experience of the people you and I deal with, build one of these combos and run into problems. That is really the basis for my posting here to begin with. Definitely don't want to cause problems. You and I are square as far as I'm concerned.
I'm a lefty also and will not shoot a RH Remington action with a Sako extractor in it. Yes I've heard the statement that the extractor is turned down under the lug abutment and is out of sight upon firing. But if the "stuff" hits the fan the weakest link will be exposed and chances are metal will be coming out the side of the action in front of my face. So 308 Hawg and I are on the same page with that thought.
My 6.5-300 Win Mag has a RH Sako solid bottom AIII action with obvously a Sako extractor on it. But one thing Sako installs is the rail going down the side of bolt that looks like the long claw extractor of an old Mauser that will help block any metal from coming out that side of the action just in case. So I feel more comfortable shooting this action over the Remington in RH configuration with the Sako extractor.
Hope this clears some things up. Gotta go to work now it's almost 12:30.
Steve
Understood and let me say up front there was never any intent of a "contest" from my perspective either. Below is my thoughts on this.
understand what you are saying about the margin of safety, and I agree that it is up to a person to decide how
much he or she needs.
That's really all I really wanted to state by making the post above. We're here to talk about LRH and acccurate rifles. As long as people have info from boths side of this debate to makeup thier own minds, is all I really wanted.
But the case will not stretch due to lack of support.
I disagree with that and here's why. I went and dug up the article that I referenced above that Jim Bordon wrote to make sure I had my facts straight and not relaying on memory. What Jim found when using 404 cases in minimum chambers in M70 actions is the barrel tenon stub of the M70 action would expand a certain amount due to elasticity and the brass case would expand with it. Then the steel would want to snap back back more than the brass and cause very tight extraction of the case. It was litterly causing a shrink fit of the case head in the chamber due to the lack of support of steel around the case head. This would only happen in tight chambers when the chamber was cut .002 or less larger in diameter than the sized cases. He didn't reference the brand of 404 cases this was found with though.
So with the 404 case your talking a case head of .540"?? and a nominal tenon diameter of 1" (leaving out the actual root thread diameter to keep it simple) on the M70 action. Now you take a Remington 1 1/6 tenon thread diameter which is .060 larger than a Win M70 and add in a case that is roughly .040" larger in diameter you end up with a little better barrel tenon -to- case head diameter ratio so it would be better than the M70 with all else being equal. Plus the toughness of these Lapua 338 cases is unbeleivable. My Norma brass shows pressure and extraction problems before the Lapua stuff I have. Just making sure everyone is aware that this can happen. Please don't misunderstand this to say it is happening in this M700/338 Lapua scenerio. Jim has the calculations in the article that I went back and dug up, so if someone is interested I can send it to them for thier own curiosity. But it does happen under certain circumstances.
The recess into the breech on a Rem. is typically 0.150" deep, if you measure the extractor groove on 338 Lapua brass it is about 0.130" from the start of the groove to the back of the head. This means that the whole case would be supported inside the chamber . I don't know of any cartridge(rimless) that the extractor groove is fully supported by the chamber.
agreed. No case is supported 100% becasue of the mechanical action of having to grab the case to extract it from the chamber.
If the chamber is headspaced properly how or where is this case going to stretch?
see explaination above. This same concept is also the reason you have to shoulder bump cases after several firings. The case can not get bigger than the container it is inside of, unless the container (the chamber) grows upon firing then returns to it's original size and crushes the brass case. This is the stickness you feel upon extraction.
I am not claiming to be an expert gunsmith but I get my info from the expert's.
I'm not either. Sounds like you and I work on the same principles. Jim Bordon has a pretty respectable list of engineering/gunsmithing credentials also among other repsectable LR smiths I know.
As far as lug set back- I have personally seen a Rem action on it's SECOND barrel chambered for the Lapua. The second barrel has over two thousand rounds through it. Abusolutely NO measurable setback.
Remington actions do setback and it has been observed more than once. When and why it happens to one action and not another...? I don't know and really can't exlain it either. Stacking of tolerenaces, variance of heat treating, etc, etc??? It does happen so I stay on the side of keeping a large safety margin to begin with. I don't doubt you do have an action with no setback and can't and won't disagree with you.
Like I said I'm not trying to start a ****ing match, but simply pass along info and maybe clear up a misconception.
same here Chris I just happen to sit on the opposite side of the table from you on this issue. If you beleive this can be done and want to do it beleive me I won't stop you and hope you continue to have fun shooting with your wife. I wish mine would take more interest in shooting, but she just won't take the bait. I keep buying guns for her though! ;^) The professionalism and experience of people on this message board is great, but this is a public forum and you never know if someone less educated in guns reads this and has a local smith that doesn't have the experience of the people you and I deal with, build one of these combos and run into problems. That is really the basis for my posting here to begin with. Definitely don't want to cause problems. You and I are square as far as I'm concerned.
I'm a lefty also and will not shoot a RH Remington action with a Sako extractor in it. Yes I've heard the statement that the extractor is turned down under the lug abutment and is out of sight upon firing. But if the "stuff" hits the fan the weakest link will be exposed and chances are metal will be coming out the side of the action in front of my face. So 308 Hawg and I are on the same page with that thought.
My 6.5-300 Win Mag has a RH Sako solid bottom AIII action with obvously a Sako extractor on it. But one thing Sako installs is the rail going down the side of bolt that looks like the long claw extractor of an old Mauser that will help block any metal from coming out that side of the action just in case. So I feel more comfortable shooting this action over the Remington in RH configuration with the Sako extractor.
Hope this clears some things up. Gotta go to work now it's almost 12:30.
Steve
