Accuracy is relative!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by goodgrouper, Jan 13, 2005.

  1. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Writers Guild

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    Recent posts in Bullets, barrels, and ballistics prompted me to write this post. There have been many recent discussions on concentricity, neck tension, barrel break-in, case prep and others. I have found that with such a broad audience on so many different levels of this game, that a lot of the arguments being made are pointless. The problem is that context does not work here. There are many people with different ideas of accuracy and how to get it. Without context, you really don't know how to figure a solution to problems. You simply get a mix of every possible viewpoint, and then you have to take the info and digest it and decide which way follows your thoughts and feelings for your own level in this game of accuracy chasing. If there was some way of putting context into the equation, you would know who you're talking to. For instance, if you go to a benchrest match, you know the context of that situation would involve many accuracy minded individuals who use things and do things totally foreign to some people in another context-say trap shooters, or rack crazed deer hunters. But, there might be one or two of those trap shooters and deer hunters who know all about weighing brass, and they throw another curve at you because they don't fit into their place.
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that when someone talks about accuracy and how to get it, the context in which that person speaks from may not be on your level. It could be higher or lower or on a different angle. But one thing that is constant and unchanging is that accuracy, no matter what your definition is of it, comes from a simple process of elimination. You have to experiment with everything you can and eliminate what is causing you to lose your accuracy. This fact remains the same for everything from trap shooters to air guns to mile shooters.
    That being said, everything you can do to increase accuracy should be done. Some things only make small differences and others make huge differences, but if your personal best is desired, you really have to make an effort to try everything you can. This requires that we must keep an open mind, and not be afraid to admit when we're wrong. We must also be brave and try things before dismissing them as frivolous. I have noticed on this forum, and from talking with people around my home state, that people sometimes will go against the popular consensus as a defense mechanism because they can't afford the proven method, or they don't want to try it because of time constraints, or their wives just won't let them have fun so they in effect talk themselves out of the operation or gadget. Then they make matters worse by trying to bring others into their boat for company or back-up. BE LEARY OF THIS MINDSET!! If someone has a very dyed-in-the-wool view on something but has no proof to back it up, then most likely they are in the defense mechanism mode for one reason or another. If accuracy inhancement is a learning process, then HOW IN THE HELL can you learn if you don't keep an open mind and experiment on your own before you go spouting off your premature concoctions of accuracy theory! What we must also recognize is that anyone in any level of this game might be reading your post, and they might earnestly be tying to find more knowledge about a certain subject and are being confused by people who haven't really done their homework and are just guesstimating with their premature theory.
    Anyways, I believe that having so many different views is a good thing because no one knows everything and the collective knowledge of all on this board is something not to be taken for granted. You simply have to consider the context in which the information is being presented to you in. Is it above my knowledge or is it something I should and could post something on? That is the question.
     

  2. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    That tired me out a bit but I got it read!!

    Anyway... I agree. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
     

  3. a.JR

    a.JR Well-Known Member

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    Goodgrouper,There is in effect 100s of ways to achieve the level of accuracy that an individual desires..The easiest way is to listen to one person instead of taking the ideas from a 100 different people...My personal approach may or may not be the easiest or best way but works good enough to win every now and then at 550 and 1000yds..I think in essence you have to take what u hear at the range and on these forums with a grain of salt ,evaluate each piece and then test to prove to yourself if it's a waste of time and money,but don't bitch to me if you havn't checked everything and you got beat....JR..Jeff Rogers..ps..Newguys,find yourself a mentor ,stick with him till ya know better........................................................................................................................................................................ [ QUOTE ]
    Recent posts in Bullets, barrels, and ballistics prompted me to write this post. There have been many recent discussions on concentricity, neck tension, barrel break-in, case prep and others. I have found that with such a broad audience on so many different levels of this game, that a lot of the arguments being made are pointless. The problem is that context does not work here. There are many people with different ideas of accuracy and how to get it. Without context, you really don't know how to figure a solution to problems. You simply get a mix of every possible viewpoint, and then you have to take the info and digest it and decide which way follows your thoughts and feelings for your own level in this game of accuracy chasing. If there was some way of putting context into the equation, you would know who you're talking to. For instance, if you go to a benchrest match, you know the context of that situation would involve many accuracy minded individuals who use things and do things totally foreign to some people in another context-say trap shooters, or rack crazed deer hunters. But, there might be one or two of those trap shooters and deer hunters who know all about weighing brass, and they throw another curve at you because they don't fit into their place.
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that when someone talks about accuracy and how to get it, the context in which that person speaks from may not be on your level. It could be higher or lower or on a different angle. But one thing that is constant and unchanging is that accuracy, no matter what your definition is of it, comes from a simple process of elimination. You have to experiment with everything you can and eliminate what is causing you to lose your accuracy. This fact remains the same for everything from trap shooters to air guns to mile shooters.
    That being said, everything you can do to increase accuracy should be done. Some things only make small differences and others make huge differences, but if your personal best is desired, you really have to make an effort to try everything you can. This requires that we must keep an open mind, and not be afraid to admit when we're wrong. We must also be brave and try things before dismissing them as frivolous. I have noticed on this forum, and from talking with people around my home state, that people sometimes will go against the popular consensus as a defense mechanism because they can't afford the proven method, or they don't want to try it because of time constraints, or their wives just won't let them have fun so they in effect talk themselves out of the operation or gadget. Then they make matters worse by trying to bring others into their boat for company or back-up. BE LEARY OF THIS MINDSET!! If someone has a very dyed-in-the-wool view on something but has no proof to back it up, then most likely they are in the defense mechanism mode for one reason or another. If accuracy inhancement is a learning process, then HOW IN THE HELL can you learn if you don't keep an open mind and experiment on your own before you go spouting off your premature concoctions of accuracy theory! What we must also recognize is that anyone in any level of this game might be reading your post, and they might earnestly be tying to find more knowledge about a certain subject and are being confused by people who haven't really done their homework and are just guesstimating with their premature theory.
    Anyways, I believe that having so many different views is a good thing because no one knows everything and the collective knowledge of all on this board is something not to be taken for granted. You simply have to consider the context in which the information is being presented to you in. Is it above my knowledge or is it something I should and could post something on? That is the question.

    [/ QUOTE ]
     
  4. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Writers Guild

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    Jeff Rogers,
    All I can say is duhhh!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Your first paragraph is almost an echo of my 5th, 6th, and 7th sentence is it not?
    And your last sentence was totally uncalled for! I was not bitching at you or anyone else for that matter. I was merely saying that arguments are pointless, and thanks for proving my point! No one beat me, and I didn't win anything. Since when were we in a competition?? I never claimed to have tested everything, and in fact, if you actually read the post, I said it was a good thing to have a forum like this for the collective knowledge of everyone since no one knows everything. I think you missed the point of the whole post, but thanks for playing! Come again soon!
     
  5. getsmart

    getsmart Well-Known Member

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    Good discussion. This medium known as the internet is full of material that is not fact-checked. This site is very informatiive, but I use it just for basic information not as I would a text-book or peer reviewed journal for achieving accuracy. Most posters in this forum are way more experienced than I.

    The important point I should make is that this site really makes me think about my assumptions on acheiving accuracy and shooting long range.

    Thanks.
     
  6. a.JR

    a.JR Well-Known Member

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    WOW !! where did that come from?? It was never my intention to berate you or belittle your post ,but ya only have to bite me on the ass once for me to learn..BE assured i will never involve myself with one of your posts again so as to not reoffend...JR..Jeff Rogers .......................................................................................................................... [ QUOTE ]
    Jeff Rogers,
    All I can say is duhhh!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Your first paragraph is almost an echo of my 5th, 6th, and 7th sentence is it not?
    And your last sentence was totally uncalled for! I was not bitching at you or anyone else for that matter. I was merely saying that arguments are pointless, and thanks for proving my point! No one beat me, and I didn't win anything. Since when were we in a competition?? I never claimed to have tested everything, and in fact, if you actually read the post, I said it was a good thing to have a forum like this for the collective knowledge of everyone since no one knows everything. I think you missed the point of the whole post, but thanks for playing! Come again soon!

    [/ QUOTE ]
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Working in the retail gun trade we get a lot of "It shoots real accurate"' I ask how accurate? "It covers a quarter
    for five shots"Well that might be ok for a run of the mill store bought Remchester but for real a rifleman it is only a starting point!It is only relitive! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
     
  8. marketello

    marketello Well-Known Member

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    I hear you Jeff.
    Being the rookie on this board you come to learn real fast who has the paitence, and who is wound a little tight.
     
  9. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Writers Guild

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    Getsmart,
    Thank you. You are very kind. If I can get the point across to just one fellow like you, it makes it all worth it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
    Dave King,
    Thank you for your response as well. Sorry my post was so long, but I had a lot to say I guess.
     
  10. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Writers Guild

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    Greenhorn,
    If you are implying that I'm wound a little tight, then you are absolutely right. That happens to people after you spend an hour making a post and then somebody replies by calling you a whiner, loser, and a hipocrit just for trying to help them. I actually consider myself very patient with many things, but jumping on someone for making a simple observation just does not deserve my patience. If Jeff's intention was not to be contentious, then he deserves my total and absolute deepest appologies, but I have read his post 20 times now and I still think it sounds as was intended. As you know, several people including an administrator got the jist of the post and did not have anything but good to say about it. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, someone takes a total opposite view of it and starts attacking you like you just slapped their mother! Whether he ever responds again to me or not, we are still on the same side. I can never stay upset at anyone who believes in the right to bear arms, or loves the shooting sports.
    Anyway, that is as far as I will digress from shooting related subjects. I am done with the soap opera crap, let's get back to shooting. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  11. Aussie

    Aussie Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Greenhorn,
    If you are implying that I'm wound a little tight, then you are absolutely right. That happens to people after you spend an hour making a post and then somebody replies by calling you a whiner, loser, and a hipocrit just for trying to help them. I actually consider myself very patient with many things, but jumping on someone for making a simple observation just does not deserve my patience. If Jeff's intention was not to be contentious, then he deserves my total and absolute deepest appologies, but I have read his post 20 times now and I still think it sounds as was intended. As you know, several people including an administrator got the jist of the post and did not have anything but good to say about it. Then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, someone takes a total opposite view of it and starts attacking you like you just slapped their mother! Whether he ever responds again to me or not, we are still on the same side. I can never stay upset at anyone who believes in the right to bear arms, or loves the shooting sports.
    Anyway, that is as far as I will digress from shooting related subjects. I am done with the soap opera crap, let's get back to shooting. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Goodgrouper ,
    Missed that bit in Jeff's post about you being a whiner , loser and hypocrite . Think he was just saying that it is possible for people to become confused by information overload . His suggestion was simply for the beginner to find someone who knows what they're doing eg. " mentor " and follow their advice until they themselves are competent . As he points out , blindly taking the advice of every person that posts on a shooting forum is likely to get you into plenty of trouble .
    Did you read Jeff's second post? (Quote) "It was never my intention to berate you or belittle your post".
    You might want to ease up on that coffee or it won't just be Jeff who skips replying to your future posts .
     
  12. lee e. jurras

    lee e. jurras Well-Known Member

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    Good post Goodgrouper, you hit the nail on the noggin to my way of thinking.We had a similar post over on my website pertaining to bigbore handguns.Was well reciever by those in the know, quiet by others....lej
     
  13. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    goodgrouper,
    I believe you may have miss-interpreted the intent of some of the recent sentences - the statement about "don't come crying to me" is a generalization, I am confident it was not aimed at you. Take a deep breath before you squeeze off, makes for better accuracy and more fun. You made some great points, but we all have to remember that this is only words on a monitor, not worth getting uptight about.
    By the way, I regularly drive to the range in a beige soccer-mom van, wear a green sock on one foot and a brown one on the other, forget my chronograph tripods and have pretty much lost track of which ammo every rifle in my gun vaults is currently zeroed for - but what the hell...
     
  14. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Writers Guild

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    Point taken. If you believe the reply was not contentious, then I believe the same. My appologies to the victim are in order. I don't know why I interpreted it that way, I guess the wording of it confused me and I was tired of posts like that. Consider my tail tucked and my head hung low. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif