8x57mm cartridge

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by mike1113, Apr 22, 2010.

  1. mike1113

    mike1113 Active Member

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    What do yall know about this cartridge (8x57mm cartridge) is it good for long range or not?
     
  2. Kevin Thomas

    Kevin Thomas Well-Known Member

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    One of the world's truly great military cartridges, along with the 303 British, the 7.62x53R and our own 30-06. Still a great hunting cartridge, but pretty limited in LR applications due to bullet selection. There's one 200 grain match bullet I'm aware of, and it's going to suffer by comparison to a similar weight 30 cal bullets due to sectional density issues. For what it's worth, the round really made it's history and reputation with a lighter (154 grain) bullet. The heavier 197 grain (if I recall correctly) bullet was used primarily in machinegun ammo due to German doctrine of the time.

    What were you planning to do with this one?

    Kevin Thomas
    Lapua USA
     

  3. Long Time Long Ranger

    Long Time Long Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Kevin is right, Not a good long range cartridge. Not enough case capacity and not a very good bullet selection. Same thing that did in the 8mm rem mag. Good cartridge for short range work on deer and several of my buddies hunted with it back in the 60's when you could still get military surplus cheap. The 7x57 improved is the best long range gun I have seen off that case. Years back I saw some excellent long range groups shot with that one.
     
  4. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Well-Known Member

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    That's only because you haven't seen a .260AAR. Otherwise known as a 6.5X257Roberts Ackley. Great at longer range. Close on the heels of the 6.5X284win, with more barrel life.

    There are Afghani snipers picking on our guys at 500 yds with ancient 8x57 Persian M98s.
    Our military is looking to assign each squad a "Designated Rifleman" with an accurized M1a/14 to shoot back at those ranges.
     
  5. Kevin Thomas

    Kevin Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Jamie,

    Actually, they're using a variety of DMRs (Designated Marksman Rifles) for this purpose right now. The main one right now is a purpose-built NM AR, built to AMU specs; a heavy, AMU contour Stainless Match barrel, fluted to bring the weight back down to "standard" M16 weight, a fully floating handguard (Daniel Defense) with full Picatinny rails, a match grade trigger (usually a Giessle) and an ACOG scope that's ballistically matched to a special 77 grain Match load put together by Black Hills. Incredibly accurate out to 600 yards and beyond, and they don't make the guys stand out from the squad quite so much as an M14 does.. The Marines seem to be pursuing the M14 a but more than the army has, but either way, the idea is the same; extending the rifle squad's lethal zone into the 300M+ range that our current small arms doctirne has gotten away from over the past couple decades. I've worked with a lot of these guys, and these rifles, and they're doing some A+ work in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Kevin Thomas
    Lapua USA
     
  6. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for straightening me out on the "Designated Marksman" Kevin. I knew they were working on the issue, but I blew it on the terminology.
    The main point I was trying to make is not to count the 8X57 out in the "lob it long" discussion about accuracy. When you consider the targets are way easier to kill than an elk for instance.
    Especially when some of those old Mausers could still be wearing a 29" barrel!
     
  7. Kevin Thomas

    Kevin Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Hey Jamie,

    no, actually you didn't; the terminology is pretty broad here, and I've seen it applied to several different types of rifles. The M16A4 config that I described is the current incarnation of the concept, though. I've done some of the training with these, with guys who were set to deploy and they're very impressive performers. Working with the troops again is a bonus for me, and something I truly love doing. There's still a fair number of the 14s in service these days, and they're trying to field more. My State Association (Missouri) recently had to turn in all of our issued M14s. From what we heard, so did the other state associations as well. Word was that these were to be checked over, rebuilt/rebarreled as needed and issued to the troops as DM rifles. These were true NM M14s, and were generally pretty good shooters. Anyway, no, there's not a real strict standardization and the terms are used pretty loosely.

    Having carried an M21 for much of my time in service, I have to admit to a warm and fuzzy feeling knowing that they're still out there on the line. Great rifles, but just happened to come along at a time when history was convulsing on to the next phase of weapons design.

    Kevin Thomas
    Lapua USA
     
  8. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Well-Known Member

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    Wow, that's cool Kevin. Thanks for your service too!
    I know my brother's M1A was sure a shooter. He had the M1a and I had an IH NM Garand. We used to compete against each other for fun, and whoever called the first flyer was usually the one to lose.

    Good times and great rifles for sure.
    Keep up the good work!
     
  9. 264junkie

    264junkie Well-Known Member

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    Not to poach the thread but can anyone shed some light on what the JR & JS designation is with this caliber and when & if it comes into play when using ammo?
    My father has a German made breakopen over/under in (8X57 & 16ga.) and the ammo identifies the caliber as 8x57JR which I think is "rimmed" but it's not clear if you can shoot any of the other 8x57 designations without a problem.
    Thanks in advance for any help.
     
  10. Kevin Thomas

    Kevin Thomas Well-Known Member

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    There are two bore sizes found in the 8x57; the older .318" diameter and the newer JS designated .323" diameter they swithched to in 1905. It's common european practice to designate a cartridge with an R to denote "rimmed" but I'd like to check a bit more on this one just to be sure. Is the face of the barrel cut for a rim?

    Kevin Thomas
    Lapua USA
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2010
  11. Long Time Long Ranger

    Long Time Long Ranger Well-Known Member

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    jamie6.5, I am very aware of the 6.5x57 imp or as you call it 6.5x257 roberts imp. It also gained some popularity about 40-50 years ago at the same time as the 7x57 imp did. The 7x57 imp is the better cartridge of the two for several reasons. The guy is asking if the 8x57 is a good long range cartridge. As I said it is not. No good long range bullets available and not enough case capacity for long heavy 8mm bullets that would approach any kind of BC and still have enough velocity for reasonable long range work. As far as picking off people at 500 yards I could easily do that with a 30-30 winchester but it is not considered a long range round either.
     
  12. Kevin Thomas

    Kevin Thomas Well-Known Member

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    264Junkie,

    Found some references to the 8x57 JRS, or IRS. The "S" denotes "spitzer" the then new, lighter weight (154 grain) .323" bullets, and the "I" or "J" stands for "Infantrie" or "Jaeger", the German word for Hunter, which is how they frequently refer to their infantry. The "R" does indeed appear to indicate a rimmed cartridge, especially in light of the fact that you're dealing with an over/under. I have data for both, and it's listed in the Lapua/Vihtavuori manuals. There is a dsitinctly different pressure level between the two, and the data is not interchangeable. Drop me a private message if you need anything more here so we won't clutter up Jamie's original thread.

    Hope that helps.

    Kevin Thomas
    Lapua USA
     
  13. Kris S

    Kris S New Member

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    Hi LTLR,

    I'm afraid that saying that the 8x57mm JS isn't good for long range shooting is to seriously misguide people, I don't blame you however as most Americans know little about this round. Part of the problem lies in the fact that US manfactured ammunition of this type (8x57) in general is way underpowered, not even approaching exploring the true capabilities of this excellent round. The way to go is full power European ammunition, where you can easily get 200 gr bullets doing 2,700+ ft/s through a 23.5 inch barrel no problem.

    Fact of the matter is that the 8x57mm JS round is infact quite a good long range round, as long as you use the right type of bullet. It was infact long range lethality that the 8x57mm JS became famous for. During WW2 the 8x57mm JS seated the 198 gr sS FMJBT projectile, the most aerodynamically efficient rifle bullet of the entire war with a G1 BC of .593 at supersonic speeds and .557 at subsonic speeds (That's considerably higher than a modern .308 M118 sniper bullet). With a typical muzzle velocity of 760 m/s through a 600mm barrel this tranlates into a 1,000+ meter effective range, the bullet still traveling at Mach 1.07 at 1,000 meters under International Standard Atmospheric conditions. This bullet enabled German machine gunners to engage Allied troops out to 3,500 meters in the North African desert during WW2, leading the British to sometimes believing they were under automatic cannon fire. Furthermore German snipers recorded confirmed kills out past 1,100 meters with this round (ex. Matthäus Hetzenauer).

    Today you can still easily duplicate this performance by either handloading, purchasing select european ammunition or WW2 German surplus.

    European munitions manufacturer Sellier & Bellot are currently offering a 196 gr FMJBT in the 8x57mm JS caliber with an average G1 BC of .557 and a muzzle velocity of 790 m/s through a 600mm barrel: Sellier & Bellot - Your ammunition company

    Sierra are currently offering their 200 gr HPBT Match King projectile with a G1 BC of .520 for handloaders: Sierra Bullets - The Bulletsmiths

    WW2 era Karabiner 98k fired to 1,000 yards against an 18 inch target (human upper torso size), using handloaded 200 gr Sierra Match King projectiles (BC . 520), achieving 3 hits out of 4 tries once zeroed in, and this with a 60 year old rifle in very windy weather:
    YouTube - WWII German Mauser 98K rifle at 1,000 yards
     
  14. Long Time Long Ranger

    Long Time Long Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I have hunted with the 8mm rem mag and taken several animals with it. It shoots a 200 grain bullet 3100 fps which is 400 fps faster than your quote on the 8x57 mauser. Neither are very good choices for long range hunting. The BC's you quoted are full metal jacket boattail bullets that are worthless as hunting bullets. With quality hunting bullets no 8mm is a very good choice for long range hunting. Just way to many far better options. Could I sit on my 1000 yard range and take out a human size target with an 8mm. Sure I could, but that doesn't make it a good choice for long range hunting when there are so many other far better options.