7MM Berger Bullet Groups

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by 284stak, Oct 28, 2007.

  1. 284stak

    284stak Well-Known Member

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    For you 7MM shooters:
    I have an 7MM-330 Dakota, built off a Rem 700 action with a 27 inch Shilen Barrel in a 1:9 twist, with an IOR scope and McMillan stock. This gun shoots 0.25 - 0.5 MOA consistently with 140 grain accubonds at 3400 fps, and does not seem to be finicky with seating depth, but I get best results at 0.015 off the lands. I have wanted to try a bullet with a higher BC for long-range windage issues, so have tried the 160 grain accubonds and the 168 Berger VLD's. Neither one will shoot nearly as well as the 140 AB's --- the 160's are in the 0.5 - 0.75 MOA's, while the Bergers are all over - sometimes shooting 3-4 MOA groups. I have tried the Bergers at the lands to 0.025 off the lands with no obvious improvement, and velocity adjustment from 3000 to 3200 fps. I have had poor results with the Lost River J36 160's as well.
    Questions:
    1. Do others have issues with the Bergers with this twist rate in 7MM?
    2. Are their other high BC bullets I should try - ie Sierra MatchKings?
    3. If I replace this barrel in the future - should I try a 1:8 twist?
    Thanks for any input.
     
  2. WAMBO

    WAMBO Well-Known Member

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    I'm shooting the Berger 180gr VLD at 3185 fps out of a 27" Rock barrel with a 1-9" twist chambered in 7mm RUM.
    I shot 5-3 shot groups at 500 meters yesterday afternoon with an average group size for all 5 groups being .47 moa.
    The smallest group was .23 moa and the largest was .61 moa.
    This being said I think your twist rate is just fine, your barrel just might not like the 168gr Berger or you might want to try them with a .010" jam into the lands as this is what I'm doing with the 180's.
    I also shoot the 175 SMK's at 2975 fps out of a 27" Broughton 5C barrel with a 1-9" twist chambered in 7mm WSM, they shoot real well, shot a 7.13" 15 shot agg at 1K earlier this month.
    Hope this answers some of your questions,
    Wayne aka WAMBO
     

  3. 284stak

    284stak Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply. Did you do any testing with the seating depth off the lands? For hunting purposes, I would be less inclined to jam the bullet into the lands, just in case I had to unchamber the cartridge - would hate to leave a bullet in there or otherwise partially pull it out.
     
  4. johnnyk

    johnnyk Well-Known Member

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    I seem to be having that problem also. I'm shooting a stock Rem 700PSS in 7mmRM. Using RL22/R9.5m mine shoots the 140TSX in to .4525" using 68.5gr @ 3234fps. I tried 69.0gr and velocity averaged 3297fps but accuracy went to .9570". Does anyone know what the max load is? I'm not seeing any of the obvious pressure signs. I may take it a little higher.
    I've tried the 168gr SMK, 150gr NBT, 154gr SST and yesterday I tried the Berger 168gr VLD. The best of all these was the 150gr NBT at .3835" using 65.0gr of RL22/9.5M for average velocity of 3021fps! The worse was yesterday session with the 168gr Berger. I tried 63.5-65.0gr of IMR7828 with Fed LRM primers. Best accuracy was about 1.0" with the worse being 2.5-3.0"!! The powder's I've tried so far have been H4831SC/RL22/IMR7828. Primers have been CCI BR2/9.5M/215. I'm beginning to think this rifle likes the lighter range of bullets! I dunno but I ain't given' up yet. JohnnyK
     
  5. tjonh2001

    tjonh2001 Well-Known Member

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    i am shooting a 7mm wsm 28 in broughton 5c barrel.i am loading 168 bergers at 3075. i was also having problems with mine until i started using h4831 and putting the bullet on the rifleling. i have now got my groups under .5. the bergers are great with the .64bc.
     
  6. WAMBO

    WAMBO Well-Known Member

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    I haven't tried any testing with them off the lands as this is a target rifle.
    I would try one of your cartridges with it .010" into the lands and see how it extracts, .010" isn't much and if you have sufficient neck tension you should be alright.
    Wayne aka WAMBO
     
  7. eddybo

    eddybo Well-Known Member

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    I have not had any luck with them. I am trying to shoot them in a .280AI with a 28in pac nor 1-9 with vv560. They appeared to be doing okay at 100 yards so I dialed up for 700. They shot about MOA. I was pretty dissapointed.
    Tried jamming then jumping no matter what I did they shot MOA even though they shot in the .3s at 100.
    I loaded some up for a buddy in his bone stock sps 7mag and shot a less than 1/2 MOA group with no tweaking, so I cant blame the bullets. Apparently my gun just doesnt like em either. Berger does make some fine bullets IMO wish it would have worked. Ditto for the accubonds in this gun, even though they shoot great in my 7rum. I guess I am stuck shooting the 140s.
     
  8. Sendero_Man

    Sendero_Man <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    I shoot the 168 VLD and love them... Group extremely well for me in my factory Sendero.

    I load 71 grains of Retumbo in my 7mm RM. .010 off the lands

    See below....

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Eric Stecker

    Eric Stecker <b>SPONSOR</b>

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    Assistance with Berger

    For those of you who are experiencing difficulties with Berger you should contact Walt Berger directly at bergerltd@aol.com. Walt is very experienced when it comes to dialing rifles in and will be able to help you with your situation.

    It is true that certain barrel like certain bullets however you should be able to get the Bergers working at an accuracy level that is acceptable or at least considerably better than some of the accuracy listed on this thread.

    Regards,
    Eric
     
  10. eddybo

    eddybo Well-Known Member

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    Eric,
    As you know some barrels just prefer different bullets. While I think Bergers are the best bullets out there, my barrel apparently just doesnt like the heavier bullets, not just the bergers. I want to shoot them so much that I have toyed with the idea of rebarreling in order to do so.
    You will not hear me disparaging Bergers 7mm bullets at all, and I appalogize if my post seemed to do so, as that was never my intent. I thought that I had made it clear with the statement about my buddies stock remington shooting a less than 3.5 inch group at 700 yards would make it clear that the bullets have no blame in my situation.
    Bergers are my bullet of choice for my .223, .308 and 300WSM. Recently I found that the new lot of 105 6mms shoot lights out in my 6/6.5x47 lapua and bought up 1000 of that lot. Heck they shoot better than lights out they shoot as well as my custom benchrest bullets. My gunsmith and mentor, Don Geraci shoots Bergers exclusively for 600 yd Fclass.
    Walt has a great reputation among benchrest shooters, and your actions keeping the public informed on this forum and others that I read has done nothing to damage that. I hope that you and Walt keep up the great work, thanks for your efforts.
     
  11. TCKev

    TCKev Well-Known Member

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    XP Results

    I'm shooting a 9 twist XP-100 in 7.21 Lazz and the 168 Bergers are awesome I'm getting 2850 with RL 19 and you can cover 5 shots with a quarter at 100 yd's. they shot as well off the lands as .005 into the lands.
     
  12. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    consider

    I am shooting 162gr Amax and 180gr Bergers in a Shilen 9 twist pipe with around 1/2 MOA accuracy. At 1000m, the Bergers have a spooky habit of hammering my target rock.

    I am shooting the 162gr Amax at 2950fps and the Bergers at 2850fps.

    Jerry
     
  13. shootinfool

    shootinfool Well-Known Member

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    I use the berger 168 gr vld's in my rem 700pss 7 mag with a 26" barrel with 1 in 9.25 twist and they work exceptionally well. I had to do alot of tweeking to make them work and have found that the best depth for my gun is pushing the bullet .004 into the lands and grooves of the barrel. The tightest group that I have gotten to date is .302 and the largest group that I have gotten is .687 at 100 yds(5 shot groups). I use the imr7828ssc with 64.9 grains of powder traveling an average of 3063fps with a ES of 18. I killed a deer this year at 620 yds and had no problem putting it down. I love these bullets and do everything that I can to get them to work in any gun I shoot. I have heard that the retumbo powder is supposed to be really good for the 7 mag's as well, but I have not tried it.
     
  14. Eaglet

    Eaglet Well-Known Member

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    Dear Folks,

    At first I was having little problems with the Berger bullets, until I found two important things.

    1) Mostly they shoot better when seated into the lands. Not always, but mostly.

    2) When working a load up, I don't shoot 100 yards, specially using any of my 300 RUMS, I shoot at 300 yards. Right now I have a load that would make me cry the way it groups at 100 yards, but the same load has grouped under 1/2 MOA at 300 yards, and at longer distances is Awesome. This is with a factory Sendero and LSS.

    My advice:

    Seat the bullet 0.010" into the lands, start loading at the bottom of the charge, work your way up very carefully. Place your targets at 300 yards, give the bullet enough time to stabilize, specially coming out of a factory barrel that more likely has a bunch of imperfections. I can see a custom barrel doing mighty good at 100 yards, but I don't see it with my factory barrels.

    Once you've gotten to a place where you pick a load, you may fine tune by moving the bullet in or out in increments of 0.005".

    If that doesn't work, then seat the bullet away from the lands, try 0.015" away and the surroundings, you may try 0.050" away; if all that don't work, get rid of your rifle... Just Kidding!

    My back then 14 y/o son, shooting the Remington LSS in 300 RUM and 210 Berger bullets just over 3100 ft/sec. at a big rock at 1385 yards and having very nasty winds gusting up pretty bad, my boy was hitting right around that rock to where it impressed me. When the wind changed direction and got right behind me, William dialed it accordingly and hit the rock to what appeared almost a center hit. I have respect for William and Berger bullets. :D

    I hope this helps.