7MM Allen Mag Questions for all

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by wildcat, Apr 7, 2007.

  1. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    Hey guys, I will soon be having a 7mm Allen Mag built. I have already started figuring out what parts I am going to use.

    My question is, what type of velocities are you getting with 180grn and 200grn bullets. I know most of you, who own 7mm Allen Mags, are shooting the 180grn and 200grn Wildcat Bullets. Are any of you using the 180grn Bergers? I am thinking you guys have also had the barrel throated for the 180 and 200grn wildcats, so you probably don't use any other bullets. However, I would like to hear what you guys are shooting with it. Also, what are the BC's of the Wildcat Bullets.

    Like I said, what kind of velocities are you getting and what type of velocities can I expect with the 180 and 200grn bullets using a Lilja 32" 1-9 twist barrel.

    Also, I am going to list the specs of the rifle, and I would like to get your input, + or -;

    1. 7MM Allen Magnum

    2. Action-BAT 8.5 M, 1.55 Diameter, Fluted Bolt

    3. Barrel-Lilja 32", 1-9 twist, 1.450 for 5" tapered to 1.350 at the muzzle. Throated for 180 and 200grn Bullets.

    4. Stock-Master Class F-Prone Special Thumbhole Verion with Adjustable Cheek Piece, One way (UP/Down) Butt Plate, Weight added to rear and weight added to forend, Color will be Black & Grey. There is a picture of the exact stock on 6mmBR.com, under Guns of the Week, title Dekorts BAT 6.5x284 F-Classer.

    5. Jewel 2oz Trigger

    6. Vias Muzzle Brake

    7. Davidson base with 40 MOA

    8. Kelby 30mm Rings

    9. Nightforce 12x42x56mm NXS with NP-R2 Reticle

    10. Weight-25 pounds

    Those are the initial specs. I am hoping I will be able to order the parts by June, that way I can get them to Kirby by January 2008. I look forward to hearing from you all.

    Jake
     
  2. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    Wildcat

    What do you want to hunt with the gun? If it is elk or deer I think you will be very happy with it.

    I would first observe you are way overscoped and will be unhappy. Although you seem to go against the grain alot, so maybe you will actually be happy.

    I am a very low tech hunter so I do not have a chronograph but Kirby chrongraphed mine at 3340 fps with a very mild load of US869 in a 34 inch barrel with a 200 grain RBBT Wildcat. I could probably achieve 3400+ fps if I choose to.

    The reason I went to a 34 inch barrel was that for the first few years I would like to have the maximum range possible and then I would like to have enough barrel to set it back at least once and maybe twice. I bought a 308 to practice with and do not shoot the 7AM for pleasure. It is strictly to hunt with.

    There are three of us who I know of that have killed stuff with this caliber: 7mmSS, James Staggs and me. We all have our emails in our profiles. We all believe the cartridge is the best thing since sliced bread and I have many times asked James and Dick questions and I follow their advice just like it came from Kirby (which it usually did). They both have been very helpful to me. In fact only about two weeks ago I asked Dick (7mmSS) for advice and even though his advice made my eyebrows go up a ways, in the end I followed his advice and am glad I did.

    Kirby was always very honest with me on technical issues as well as financial issues and my advice to you is to simply trust him. He will deliver you a great gun if you ask for and take his advice.

    I hope you are getting a single shot action. I always grit my teeth when people build long range guns designed to miss with.

    I ordered 500 of the 200 gr HP RBBT Wildcats with my rifle. I am happy with that style bullet for hunting elk. I am very comfortable that the gun will kill elk to 1500 yards. Too bad it doesn't have a better triggerman. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


    My best advice is to rely on Kirby for advice. You are paying him for that. It is included in the price of the gun.

    What I did was mark my calendar and send him a nice easy going email once every two months asking about the weather and world affairs. He would always recognize it as an inquiry into the status of things and let me know he was still alive and knew I was still alive. I am very happy with the way things went.
     

  3. ss7mm

    ss7mm Writers Guild

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    1: Great choice

    2: Great choice. I went with a Nesika but the choice is yours.

    3: Lilja is good but check with Kirby on land/groove configuration and dimensions. There are other brands that would work also. Kirby can fill you in on whatever you are thinking about.

    4: If you're happy with it then it'll probably work o.k.

    5: I wouldn't have a 2 oz. trigger on a "hunting" gun if you paid me to. If you're just building it to shoot and play with, then the weight is up to you but for me 2 oz. would still be a little heavy even in a play gun.

    6: Wouldn't have one on a gun I was going to shoot. I don't like dirt in my eyes. Go with a Holland or one of Shawn's brakes. They'll work just as well, and probably a lot better, and you won't have a dust storm with each shot.

    7: You may or may not get by with a 40 moa base. It depends on what you use for a zero range and what happens when you put all of your "steel" together and try and sight it in. I've got a 20 moa base on mine and wish I'd put 30 on it. 40 would put me bottomed out to zero the way I like and I won't bottom out my scope adjustment. With my steel, 30 would work and I'd not be bottomed out.

    8: Never used them but a lot of people do. I went with Nightforce rings.

    9: Nightforce 12-42 = 45 moa elev. 5.5-22 = 100 moa elev. Guess which I went with??? I have at times used all of the scopes elevation plus the scopes hash marks when playing with dangerous rocks way out there and wish I'd had some more besides what the scope has.

    10: Whatever you can pack and whatever makes you happy. If you're not hunting with it then weight is not an issue.

    I've shot from 160 Accubonds at 3500-3600 fps on up to the 200 gr. Wildcats at up to 3350 fps. Most of the time the lighter Accubonds are at about 3450-3500 for the accuracy and the 200s at about 3200-3250 for the accuracy. It doesn't matter how fast they're going if you can't hit anything with it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif As far as the BCs, PM me or e-mail me when you get it up and running and I'll fill you in on a starting point for the BC. You'll only know what it is after you have done all of the testing that you should do.

    Have fun and listen to Kirby. He's been there and done that. You'll enjoy it when you finally get it built. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  4. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    BB, your right I do sometimes go against the grain when it comes to Bullet type. The only thing I seem to do different than everyone elso is use of bullets. However, I will be using only high BC bullets out of this rifle. I will be using it for ranges out to 1500 to 2000 yards.

    I set most of my rifles up to use the Higher BC V-Max and Ballsitic tip bullets. I usually only get to shoot out to 1000 yards where I live and these bullets do really well for me at that range, + they anchor the varmints really well. There are times when I do shoot past a 1000 yards and when I do, I always use the Higher BC Bullets. I am currently having a 300-WSM built around the 125grn BT for varmint hunting out to 1000 yards.

    I am going to need a rifle for shooting past a 1000 yards and that's why I decided on the 7mm Allen Mag and the High BC bullets. I considered going with the 338 Allen Mag, however, I 've decided the 7mm Allen Mag will be plenty gun for shots out to 2000 yards.

    Regarding your question about what I will be using the rifle for. I will use it for Long range varmint hunting on Squirrels, Coyotes, and Crows. I will also shoot it in some F-Class competitions at our local range and they're not sanctioned events, they are for fun and bragging rights. I think the rifle will be to heavy, and becuase of the brake, will not be legal for santioned comps.

    Regarding the scope, I might go with the 8x32x56mm NXS. I just bought one, so I will see how I like it.

    Regarding action, it will be a single shot.

    Regarding Kirby, I will listen to his advice for sure!!!! I already know he is a great guy. He was getting ready to build a 338 Allen Mag for me, and I had to pull out do to my job situation. He gave me ALL of my money back with NO questions asked. I sold all of my guns, scopes, reloading equipment, rangefinder, ect. It looks like my job situation is going to get really good here soon, and I will be able to build back my collection. The 7MM Allen Mag is going to be in my collection.

    Regarding the bullet choice, I am proably going to have it throated for the 180grn and 200grn Wildcat RBBT Bullets. I have heard Kirby say this is the best way to set the 7mm Allen Mag up. Regarding velocity, I thought it was running the 200grn bullets around 3400fps, I guess I was wrong.

    Thanks for the info BB.

    Jake
     
  5. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    ss7mm, thanks for the info.

    Regarding the action, I went with the BAT because they are the best action out there. I have owned both BAT and Nesika and the BAT won hands down. Remeber, that's my opinion. I just bought a new Lawton 7500 Action for my 300-WSM project. I have heard really great things about the Lawtons. If I like the Lawton and it performs well on my 300-WSM project, Maybe I will use a Lawton on the 7mm Allen Mag project.

    I am thinking about maybe going with the Krieger barrel. However, Kirby seems to mostly use the Lilja's, and he gets great results from them, so I will probably do what Kirby thinks will be best.

    Regarding the stock, it's an awesome set up. I've always wanted a stock built like this for long range shooting. They are very expensive and that's why I usually go with the McMillan MBR. However, I am going to buy the best for this project, I am willing to pay a little more for a platform like this. If you get a chance, take a look at the stock. You can see a picture and write up on it of on 6mmBR.com, look under Guns of The Week and the title is "Week 76 Dekort's BAT 6.5x284 F-Classer. I am building the stock exactly like that, but the color will Black & Grey.

    Regarding the trigger, I will probably go with the Jewel trigger that allows for adjusment from 1.5oz to 3pounds. I've done that before too.

    Regarding the brake, I usually shoot from a bench and if I shoot of the ground, I put a matt in front of the muzzle.

    Regarding the MOA in the base, the farthest I will be able to shoot is right around 2000 yards, so I think 40 MOA will be just right if I use the 8x32x56mm NXS. I thought I was going to use the 12x42x56mm NXS, but I am thinking the 8x32x56 NXS will be a better chioce. That will give me a total of 105 MOA.

    Regarding the weight, I wont be carrying it that much. It will mostly be shot of the bench or from the prone position. If I have to carry it, it wont be a problem. I am 6'2", 250lbs, and my other hobbie is body building and running so my weight is a very in shape 250 pounds.

    Regarding the velocity, I know the VLD or RBBT bullets usually do better at the lower end of the velocity spectrum. However, I would really like to get the velocity as high as possible with the best accuracy. I was thinking with a 32", 1-9 twist pipe, I could get the 200grn RBBT's going at around 3400fps. Maybe Kirby will give us the exact velocity, with this bullets (200grn), out of a 32" pipe.

    Once again, thanks for the info. Here is my e-mail address;
    wildcat@highdesert.com
    I would like to see the BC info on your rifle with the 200grn RBBT.

    Jake
     
  6. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    Wildcat
    I would suggest that you get a Savage FT/R for F-class and not use the 7AM for that. F-Class is a high volume, rapid fire competition and I do not think running 22 rounds of 105 grains of powder each down a barrel in 30 minutes is a good idea. The entire course consists of nearly 60 rounds of timed fire and I believe your barrel will be ruined on the first day. That is why I bought the 40X in 308 - the 308 barrel will take that kind of abuse. You should ask Kirby about that particular point.

    For shooting varmint out to 2K you should contact Richard Graves concerning his new bullets. That would be the way to go in my opinion. As I said, for elk I am happy with the old style.

    If you really just want to shoot varmints then maybe the scope will be OK. I spent some amount of time last Fall looking through my 8-32X-56mm NXS at a meadow that was about 2000 -2500 yards away. I tried to imagine seeing a rock chuck as a first step and then trying to judge all of the factors that would be necessary to make the shot. The people who do this stuff are way better than me. What intrigues me is that a rock chuck is only a little smaller than the kill zone of a deer. If you can't connect with the first round on a rock chuck then you can't connect on a deer. That pretty much tells me what my limits are on deer hunting.

    At 2K there is no difference between a launch velocity of 3300 fps and 3400 fps in my opinion. It is all about the accuracy with which you judge distance and wind. The latter being the most unpredictable. Even on a windless day you will have convection currents. I see no reason you cannot get 3400 out of your gun if you ask Kirby for advice and take his advice. I do not believe you will get 3400 out of what you have specified. Sending Kirby a bunch of componnets and telling him to screw them together is a bad idea. Talk to Kirby offline and I think you will have a very slightly different list of components and the gun will perform at 2K (at a slow rate of fire).
     
  7. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    BB, I will mostly be using the rifle for long range varminting and not F-Class comp. If I do some F-Class shooting, it would be at our local range and it would be for fun. I will definently listen to what Kirby recommends and thanks for the advice.

    Jake
     
  8. uncleB

    uncleB Well-Known Member

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    wildcat,
    If you are going to use this as a 2000yard gun, You should really think about a 338 instead of a 7mm if for no other reason than being able to spot your shot. no matter what B.C. the 200gr wildcat bullet is a 300gr SMK will be much easier to spot past 1 mile (not as easy as some think)
    UB
     
  9. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    I was originally going to have a 338 Allen Mag built, however, it seems like there is a lot more case prep involved. I am sure I will continue to think about it.

    Jake
     
  10. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Wildcat,

    Drop me an e-mail and we can talk about the finer details on barrel choice. This is the critical aspect of the project as we have learned along the way. I say we, because without the men that have already responded to your questions, I would have not been able to fully develope the 7mm AM to the extent it has already been.

    These extreme rounds are always evolving and I am always looking for ways to get more performance from my rounds. There are several things that we have discovered with the 7mm AM and the Wildcat bullets. It has not always been a smooth ride but we are getting things pretty fine tuned.

    New barrel designes have been tested and proven to produce better results then original barrel designs. Only problem now is getting a reliable source for these barrels. I thought I had one lined up but it seems they are so far behind, getting barrels is extremely time consuming.

    That said, I am already working on a new barrel supplier, barrels are ordered and are being built to my exact specs for the specific needs of my AMs and Wildcat Bullets. Best news is that this new barrel supplier is supposed to get barrels shipped within 4 weeks of ordering. We will see. Barrels are on the way for testing and proving and if they meet the grade, there will not be a problem with barrels.

    The receiver you list is a great one but I would like to mention that there will soon be a custom receiver from APS called the Raptor. Bascially, it will be a beefed up verion of the Nesika Bay M receiver available in single shot or repeater with lengthened bolt head and significantly lengthened receiver threads to handle long heavy barrels.

    It will also fit into standard Rem 700 stocks. It will be 1.355" in diameter however do it may not be large enough for what your looking to build barrel wise. That said. I assure you it will easily be as stout as the BAT M receiver because of its much longer bolt head and significantly longer receiver thread length. IT should easily handle a 1.350" straight cylinder barrel of 32".

    More to come on the new receiver soon. Hope to have them full tested and proven this summer.

    Nice thing, they will be built to the same or better quality as the Nesika receivers but should be several hundred less in price. They will be comparible to the BAT receivers in price but shipping time will be DRAMATICALLY less and there will be no inletting problems as with the BAT 1.55 receivers.

    As far as my recommended use for the 7mm AM. IT is designed for one purpose only, extreme performance big game hunting. It IS NOT a high volume cartridge. It is designed to have a load developed, and used for big game hunting which would include a relatively low number of shots per season. If you varmint hunt with a chambering like this, you will burn the throat very quickly as compared to using it as big game rifle.

    Just a recommendation. IF you want a higher volume shooter, you may consider a smaller chambering or if you want a higher volume long range varmint round. The 338 AX would be a much better choice with the larger bore on the same case design.

    Just recommendations. I am not opposed to rebarreling your rifle every year, you may not want to pay for it however!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  11. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Kirby for the awesome info. What is the 338 AX. I am still trying to figure out what I want to build. Even though this rifle would be used for long range varmint hunting, It would not be a high volume shooting rifle. It would only be used for the very long shots. I really want a 7mm, and I would like to use the Berger 168 &amp; 180grn bullets at the highest velocity I can attain. I would also like to use the Wildcat's, however, I am thinking I would proably use the Bergers more.

    Ive thought about going with the following 7mm's; 7mm-STW, 7mm-RUM, 7.21 Lazzoroni fire bird, ect. The 7mm-Allen Mag seems to be the best 7mm out there because it is Improved and of course the brass is excellent. Many of the long range guys I shoot with, are shooting the 7MM-RUM, with the 168grn Berger, and they are having great success. However, they are not getting many firings with the brass and the primer pockets loosen quickly.

    Jake
     
  12. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

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    Wildcat, uncleB gave you some really good advise and i agree with him 100%. depending on the background,seeing the bullet going through the air with a 7mm is very difficult past 1200-1500 yards. also seeing the hits gets increasingly difficult as the range increases.if you have aspirations of 2k a 7mm is just not the caliber.

    this past deer season i talked to a long range hunter that had quite a bit of experience and he told me that seeing the bullet was his limiting factor.he used a 30/378 with 220 SMK's and depending on conditions,the bullet would just disappear as it flew through the air. as an experiment, we fired off a few rounds with my 338 and everyone there, including myself, could see them a whole bunch farther than the 30 caliber. he ordered a 338 barrel the next day while he was hunting and said next year he would have a 338/378.
     
  13. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Dave,

    In most cases I would agree with you about seeing your impacts at extreme range with the 7mm.

    On the matter of watching your bullets trail in flight, I will totally disagree with you. WHen I was in Idaho this fall hunting with Shawn Carlock. We were able to shoot a 300 RUM with 220 gr SMKs I believe, Shawns 338 Edge with 300 gr SMK and my 7mm AM with 200 gr ULD RBBTs at 3300 fps.

    Of the three, the 7mm gave the most dramatic visual trail of the three. May have been the conditions we were shooting in but with the velocity advantage of the 7mm AM over the other two, it is quite easy to see the trail out to extreme range.

    In my experience, seeing the trail much past 1500 yards with any bullet is difficult at best even in ideal conditions. That said, if you get practiced at it, watching the trail over the first 1000 yards will give you a great idea where the bullet will land.

    Shawn Carlock was calling my hits well before the bullets arrived on target and in most cases he was spot on but he has a bit of experience behind him as well.

    My comments are only in reference to the 200 gr ULD RBBT launched at 3300 fps or higher. In conventional chamberings which are limited to around 3200 fps or less, you may have a point but not with the AM and this bullet.

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  14. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

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    can't say i've seen that combo go through the air, might get to this fall when Buffalo Bob unpacks his lengthy lazer! i'll still take a 338 over a 7 for 2k.