6.5x45 lapua testing 4007ssc,4064 and 8208xbr

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by paste, Aug 7, 2014.

  1. paste

    paste Well-Known Member

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    I recently received a 6.5x47 lapua in a trade and have been working on some loads. Powders I am trying are IMR 4007ssc, IMR 4064 and IMR 8208xbr. there is very little data for this cartridge and even less for these powders but I like to try things that are different from the majority of others.
    I done a ladder test with each of the powders. I am no expert but I think I done them the right way if I didn't I am open to suggestions and advice.
    I used 123gr Nosler custom competition bullets with the 4007ssc and the 4064 powders and I used 120gr Sierra matchkings with the 8208xbr powder. If I am thinking correctly (which is a rare occurrence,just ask my wife) I should use the 37.9gr of 8202xbr charge due to it being on the same vertical plane as the shots before and after it.
    I am considering redoing the 4007ssc and the 4064 and use the sierra bullets.
    I am including the pix of the targets for each powder please feel free to give me any suggestions.
    20140807_162444.jpg

    20140807_162525.jpg

    20140807_163008.jpg
     
  2. paste

    paste Well-Known Member

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    does anyone have any insight or constructive criticism on how I should proceed with these three powders
     

  3. barnesuser28

    barnesuser28 Well-Known Member

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    I would definitely use 37.9 grains of 8208xbr. I dont see anything worth perusing with the other powders with that bullet.
     
  4. tcob68

    tcob68 Well-Known Member

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    I probably wouldn't do anymore load development with 4007sc unless you have a good supply lined up as it has been discontinued.
     
  5. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    That's not ladder testing..

    Why are you adjusting your point of aim shot to shot?
    What distance?
    What is your seated distance to lands(DTL), and how did you arrive there?
     
  6. paste

    paste Well-Known Member

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    I was shooting 100 yards and I wasn't adjusting the scope if that is what you mean, I was putting one shot into each target and that is how the bullets impacted, I was looking for a load that puts them on the same vertical plane per what I saw on 6mmbr forums and they was calling the way they was doing it a ladder test and I just replicated what they done.
    if this isn't the proper way to do a ladder test please explain the correct way to do one.

    and thanx for the heads-up on the 4007ssc I wont be using it if they discontinued it
     
  7. Alan Griffith

    Alan Griffith Well-Known Member

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    Paste,

    Here ya go. http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...g-1k-detailed-article-video-42881/index3.html

    I've tested both IMR 4007 ssc and IMR 8208 extensively in the 6.5x47. One will never get the faster velocity with 8208 that you can get with 4007 ssc. You can get excellent accuracy with both. I hunted Utah elk, unsuccessfully, last year with a 140 VLD/4007 ssc load. It's burn rate is right between Varget and H4350, both well used and well known powders in the 6.5x47.

    Alan
     
  8. 7magcreedmoor

    7magcreedmoor Well-Known Member

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    The "ladder test" as I understand it goes like this: You have one bullet, one powder and are looking to establish the optimum charge weight for that pairing in your rifle. Load a batch of test ammo with charges increasing in (usually) half grain increments for the initial test. Using a tall target at 300 yards, you aim at the same bullseye for all shots fired, making NO scope adjustments between shots. Accordingly, your impacts will be spread vertically up the target (generally you shoot lowest to highest charge, one shot each until you reach the maximum load, or you see pressure signs that stop you for safety reasons). Keep track of the shots, marking or filming the target as you go. When all shots have been fired, you will see that there are "clusters" along your vertical dispersion, representing "nodes" where the vibratory characteristic of the bullet/load combination is more uniform. A theoretical example would be your 3rd, 4th, and 5th shots are a little closer together, then maybe your 9th, 10th, and 11th shots are also a little closer together. The charge weights for those shots (here is where the record keeping is important) are what you now want to focus on. For a hunting load, generally we want the highest velocity node available, but for target shooting maybe a slower node gives a tighter grouping. After identifying nodes, you then do additional ladder tests using smaller increments in charge weight within the nodes to refine the solution. For a video demonstration and explanation, go to 8541 Tactical on youtube and search for "Ladder Test". John does a very good explanation of the test and the interp of the results.
     
  9. paste

    paste Well-Known Member

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    thanx 7mag that explains alot
    so I think I had the right method just that I should have used a single target and been shooting at 300 instead of 100.
    I guess I will start over again and do it the right way this time.
    but I really do enjoy it..

    thanx to everyone that has given me advice I truly appreciate it and I am always looking for more insight
     
  10. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    You didn't mention seating.
    If you pull this out of a hat, and it's not right, your ladder will be a mess.

    Your brass also needs to be stable in every regard, as you will use it, or you'll be wasting effort again.
    Just tryin to help
     
  11. paste

    paste Well-Known Member

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    the seating depth is .010 off the lands and my brass is lapua brass that I trimmed to 1.840 +/- .002. All cases I ran through a forster full length sizing die before I trimmed and deburred them. I used a RCBS ram priming unit to seat all of the primers .005 below flush with no variance between cases.
    I do appreciate the help MikeCr and please keep the tips coming

    alan, I am gonna try your method also so I wont have to pull bullets

    is there a specific seating depth I should start with or is the .010 off lands ok for starts
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  12. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Here is an explanation of how I ladder test step by step.

    My methodology is pretty similar after I have done basic research to determine, bullet,primer, and powder combo I want to use/test for each ladder. Now this might be many reloading manuals, others recommended loads, Qload, etc, but I find a "suspected" powder, primer, bullet and case and then work a load that is normally about 2-3 grains below max to 1-2 grains over at .2 to .3 increments depending on case size. Normally this is 15-25 bullets only with 4-5 extra of the lowest charge for initial zero on the other target.

    I use the smaller increments as I am looking for a node that often is only .5 to max 1.0 wide and this gives me a easier way to determine it.

    1. Shoot ONLY in early morning or evening in no wind conditions.

    2. minimum of 300 yards prefer 400. I have found that seems to be the ideal distance for enough vertical dispersion as the bullets walk up and close enough to see each separate bullet impact with good spotting scope on white target. Shorter makes it to difficult to determine impacts and longer makes it too difficult again to see any impacts.

    3. 35P chrono is used. This is absolutely key. Brian Litz's new book confirms why the Oehlers are the best chromos.

    4. Minature paper target at bench to plot each round and another sheet to write down each MV for each round. That way I do not lose track of any bullet shot as each is numbered on plot sheet and anytime I go down range to verify impact. I also mark each shot on the 35 P paper as it is shot.

    5. Minimum of 1 minute between shots from starting dirty bore, I usually zero at that distance on another target at the side to confirm accurate zero for bottom of ladder target which is normally large plain white cardboard with 1" aiming dot near bottom. I use .3 grain for large cases and .2 for smaller cases as increments.

    6. If I am not 100% sure of bullet location, I either walk down or I often use use colored magic markers(4-5 colors) alternating on bullet tips which show up on target. No they will not vary impact points on target. That is used all the time at 1K BR to identify any crossfires on your target.

    7. MV as you go up will be linear (ie roughly same FPS each bullet) until you hit a node and then it tends to decrease dramatically for that 2-4 shots and then jump linear again. You will see 3-4 rds with small MV variances normally in the node and then jump dramatically again. You can see on a magnum a jump of 20 FPS and then 3 bullets around 6-8 fps along then it will jump again back to around 20. This is only an example, not always.

    Combination of bullet AND MV grouping confirms node and is usually easy to see when you compare the two!! You will have multiple bullets with similar vertical impacts and very low dispersion on MV.

    8. I pick a middle node, shoot groups to confirm basic accuracy and ES, SD nodes. I normally find 2 mabye three nodes, and one will be in the MV range I am looking for. Many times the top one is at the starting of high pressure point, so often do not use that one. Middle of the node gives me enough variance on temps and other factors that I am not out of the node on any given day. I do not focus on the lowest ES/SD. Once I find a node then it is an "acceptable ES/SD and tight grouping that is confirmed. I normally shoot for single digit ideally but low teens is acceptable with the grouping.

    I determine pressure by case head expansion measured with a blade mic, primers (but not always accurate as some are softer than others) etc. It is a combination of everything that leads me to determine I am at high pressure. I take it until is see firm signs of pressure and then stop even if I have not shot all the shots IF I am at an acceptable MV and see good nodes.

    9. I then try groups at various seating depths at my best grouping and see what depth it likes. For a single shot gun start, .010 in the lands and come out. Magazine gun, start at max magazine COAL and in from there. I start .010 in, come out at .030, .050, .080 and .120 IF a single shot gun. One will be much tighter and then work in between to find the place normally down to .010.

    10. If the gun will not shoot 1 MOA, that makes shooting a ladder a little difficult as you do not know what is the real vertical or 3-4MOA grouping "inability", so IMO it is not for every gun.

    11. If a gun will not shoot with all this, then another ladder with another powder or bullet combo.

    I have proven this is repeatable and capable of taking a new rifle to winning in competition is under 50 rds fired.