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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
6.5mm Voodoo -Unveiled
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<blockquote data-quote="Fiftydriver" data-source="post: 485680" data-attributes="member: 10"><p>Again, I am in no way saying your not getting those numbers, I am only saying you SHOULD NOT BE getting those numbers. There is no way you can get that level of velocity without pushing the pressures very hard.</p><p> </p><p>Fast barrel, yes they happen from time to time but for a barrel to produce 100 fps more velocity then average with same loads is VERY off. 50 fps maybe.</p><p> </p><p>Now combine a fast barrel with excessive pressures and you will get more velocity, is that the right way to do it, NOPE. </p><p> </p><p>As far as reading pressure signs, when I started building rifles for the 257 STW there were wild claims of 4100 fps with 100 gr bullet weights(which your medium sized VooDoo should be able to do also, at least from the 140 gr velocity results). I built two of these for two brothers. THese two were very experienced handloaders and shooters. They took their rifles and started load development. A week later they called me and said they were getting 4100 fps with fine accuracy, very happy. Bolt lift was effortless, extraction perfect, no ejector ring of any kind, nice rounded primers, no primer cratering. Perfect. It appeared the claims were right on the money.</p><p> </p><p>The next day I got a call from one of the brothers, he was less then happy, he had just finished up sizing 50 cases that he had used for load development, everyone of them had the primer pockets blown completely out. How could this be, must be something wrong with the rifle as there was absolutely no pressure signs of any kind.</p><p> </p><p>The reason I bring this up is simple, just because you do not see any pressure signs does not mean your not WAY over pressured. The best way to estimate pressures is with a chronograph, especially in a custom built rifle because the chambers are tight and usually the receivers are accurized and squared.</p><p> </p><p>As far as your experience level and what you have done to this point, congrats, your on your way and have a hell of a jump on what most of us have done at your age. </p><p> </p><p>That said, it would not matter one bit who posted this information I would respond exactly the same way. Hell, if David Tubbs himself posted these results I would still post to warn about this level of performance.</p><p> </p><p>Kind of curious how you think the VV powder would get you more velocity. Its much bulkier then US869 so you will not be able to get nearly as powder into the case so I do not think you will be real happy with the results.</p><p> </p><p>My point still stands, your WAY over pressure to get those velocities from this case capacity. We have had dozens of these debates and it usually always comes down to over pressured loads.</p><p> </p><p>As far as the steel plate, How thick was it? I assume 3/8" which is pretty standard. If it was 1/4" or less, maybe but I have never seen this type of plate used for steel targets. </p><p> </p><p>Again, My main and only point, for the capacity you are using, you should be shooting for 3300 fps with 140 gr bullets and thats it. I would also like to hear about some of your long range groups, not 100 yard, but more like 800 yard plus, that will tell us if the Bergers are holding up to this velocity.</p><p> </p><p>When I was testing the VLDs I found that often accuracy was very good at 100 yards at high velocity but at long range the accuracay went to hell.</p><p> </p><p>I am not attacking you because of your age in any way. I commend your passion for our sport but with age comes experience. I was where you are not about 20 years ago. Speed was everything, did not care about pressures, just wanted shear velocity. The more I learned, the more I realized that life is much better using a larger "engine" to get high velocity then pushing a smaller "engine" to red line to get high velocity.</p><p> </p><p>Not only does brass last longer but rifles are stessed less.</p><p> </p><p>Using that Savage stainless receiver, keep a VERY close eye on bolt lift effort. The Savage receivers can have a tendency to be a bit soft, especially the stainless ones. I have seen several that after a few hundred firings had significant bolt lug set back into the reciever. Watch out for this or it will turn out very bad, believe me. </p><p> </p><p>Do what you want, if you think your safe, by all means go for it. Maybe you just have one of those magical rifles which I have heard of. BUT, keep your eyes open, if you start seeing anything odd, get the hell off the throttle before you find yourself in serious trouble.</p><p> </p><p>The big ammo makers have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars pressure testing ammo. All the big bullet makers have also done this same pressure testing with all their bullets. Every one of them are screaming at you that your WAY Over pressured.</p><p> </p><p>I would recommend listening to them just a little bit.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fiftydriver, post: 485680, member: 10"] Again, I am in no way saying your not getting those numbers, I am only saying you SHOULD NOT BE getting those numbers. There is no way you can get that level of velocity without pushing the pressures very hard. Fast barrel, yes they happen from time to time but for a barrel to produce 100 fps more velocity then average with same loads is VERY off. 50 fps maybe. Now combine a fast barrel with excessive pressures and you will get more velocity, is that the right way to do it, NOPE. As far as reading pressure signs, when I started building rifles for the 257 STW there were wild claims of 4100 fps with 100 gr bullet weights(which your medium sized VooDoo should be able to do also, at least from the 140 gr velocity results). I built two of these for two brothers. THese two were very experienced handloaders and shooters. They took their rifles and started load development. A week later they called me and said they were getting 4100 fps with fine accuracy, very happy. Bolt lift was effortless, extraction perfect, no ejector ring of any kind, nice rounded primers, no primer cratering. Perfect. It appeared the claims were right on the money. The next day I got a call from one of the brothers, he was less then happy, he had just finished up sizing 50 cases that he had used for load development, everyone of them had the primer pockets blown completely out. How could this be, must be something wrong with the rifle as there was absolutely no pressure signs of any kind. The reason I bring this up is simple, just because you do not see any pressure signs does not mean your not WAY over pressured. The best way to estimate pressures is with a chronograph, especially in a custom built rifle because the chambers are tight and usually the receivers are accurized and squared. As far as your experience level and what you have done to this point, congrats, your on your way and have a hell of a jump on what most of us have done at your age. That said, it would not matter one bit who posted this information I would respond exactly the same way. Hell, if David Tubbs himself posted these results I would still post to warn about this level of performance. Kind of curious how you think the VV powder would get you more velocity. Its much bulkier then US869 so you will not be able to get nearly as powder into the case so I do not think you will be real happy with the results. My point still stands, your WAY over pressure to get those velocities from this case capacity. We have had dozens of these debates and it usually always comes down to over pressured loads. As far as the steel plate, How thick was it? I assume 3/8" which is pretty standard. If it was 1/4" or less, maybe but I have never seen this type of plate used for steel targets. Again, My main and only point, for the capacity you are using, you should be shooting for 3300 fps with 140 gr bullets and thats it. I would also like to hear about some of your long range groups, not 100 yard, but more like 800 yard plus, that will tell us if the Bergers are holding up to this velocity. When I was testing the VLDs I found that often accuracy was very good at 100 yards at high velocity but at long range the accuracay went to hell. I am not attacking you because of your age in any way. I commend your passion for our sport but with age comes experience. I was where you are not about 20 years ago. Speed was everything, did not care about pressures, just wanted shear velocity. The more I learned, the more I realized that life is much better using a larger "engine" to get high velocity then pushing a smaller "engine" to red line to get high velocity. Not only does brass last longer but rifles are stessed less. Using that Savage stainless receiver, keep a VERY close eye on bolt lift effort. The Savage receivers can have a tendency to be a bit soft, especially the stainless ones. I have seen several that after a few hundred firings had significant bolt lug set back into the reciever. Watch out for this or it will turn out very bad, believe me. Do what you want, if you think your safe, by all means go for it. Maybe you just have one of those magical rifles which I have heard of. BUT, keep your eyes open, if you start seeing anything odd, get the hell off the throttle before you find yourself in serious trouble. The big ammo makers have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars pressure testing ammo. All the big bullet makers have also done this same pressure testing with all their bullets. Every one of them are screaming at you that your WAY Over pressured. I would recommend listening to them just a little bit. [/QUOTE]
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6.5mm Voodoo -Unveiled
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