6.5/.284 die - brass question

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by trooper698, Apr 5, 2004.

  1. trooper698

    trooper698 Member

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    Hi. I recently got my stick back from rebareling and I have a question about a load. Off the bat I tried some 142 MKs over 46.0 RE19 out of Lapua brass. I usually run new brass through sizer to make sure it's to spec. but this time I tried some out of box. The rifle shot in low .2s and even .1s with no brass prep at all, and those were 4 and 5 shot groups at 100 yd. After running the brass through full sizer and reloading, I can't get it to hold under 1" at 100. I switched bullets, powder, primers, went up and down the charge scale, but to no avail. Checked the rifle all out, it seems fine and tight. Dies are Hornady Custom New Dimension. Rifle has Douglas 28" match barell on a pre-64 M70 in a H-S stock with Leupold on top. After I loaded some unsized brass from the box, groups went back to one hole. What gives...? BTW I'm no benchrest or tactical shooter, just like to shoot some groundhogs.
    TX in advance.
    Z [​IMG]
     
  2. Varmint Hunter

    Varmint Hunter Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like your resizing dies are causing a concentricity problem. I'd check for case neck run out on unfired cases, then on fired cases before and after resizing. This should help you isolate the problem.

    VH
     

  3. NUN

    NUN Member

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    Zinger

    I like Hornady sizing dies but the seating dies suck. Get a Forester Ultra seater (cheapest of the inline, micrometer seaters) and your troubles will be over. While you're at it get a Redding full length bushing sizer, mic a case with a seated bullet and get a bushing about 0.003" smaller so you won't be oversizing your brass.

    If you like spending money get a Forester neck turner and just clean up the case neck. If you use Hornady brass you won't have to take more than 0.0005" of the neck to clean it up, then mic and get another bushing to fit the turned necks. Makes a lot of difference in group sizes. If you want to get into this sport more than just passing, get a case checker also, take your pick of the better names or make one if you're inclined. I have an early Sinclair, and two I made from mostly scrap stuff. They all work great and tell me at a glance when something is amiss. Enjoy
     
  4. johnny k.

    johnny k. Well-Known Member

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    Sound like neck tension differences to me. If it will shoot better with unsized brass git out there and shooter'. You'll be fire forming your brass and getting bragging size groups to boot.
    Seriously, your resizing die may be giving you too much neck tension. Measure the inside neck diameter of an unsized case and then measure inside dia. of a resized case and see what ya have. Will be looking for your post. Johnny K.
     
  5. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Zinger

    the Forester BR seater is the best seater for the money. Forester also makes a BR sizing die that is very good. I send mine off to JLC precision (jlcprec@netins.net) and that is Jim Carstenson. He makes very good custom dies and for $35 he will convert any die to bushing, either Redding or Wilson. That is best way to go. Will solve concentricity problem on necks and using an inline seater that should cure it.

    You either have a very big problem with concnetricity or neck tension. Either way, that will cure it.

    As for neck turning best neck turner is the K&M. I have the Forester and it is a pain in the butt compared to the KM.

    BH
     
  6. trooper698

    trooper698 Member

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    Guys, thanks for replies. Johnny, I got to get another batch of brass to measure. I had 50 and fired them all during this ordeal so I have no inside dia. on new stuff. I'm getting more, will let you know. Talked to smith, he says might have thick necks and to try sliding bullets in after firing. I did and they go in relatively easy. Varmint H., is there another way to check runout? I have no runout gauge.
    I also thought sizing die might be the culprit. I'm getting a Forester seater, and probably a Redding sizer. Should I only go with neck sizer? I've no experience with bushing dies. Thanks again VH, BH, BT and JK.
    zinger
     
  7. trooper698

    trooper698 Member

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    Johnny K. here's some numbers I come up with. New brass ID .252".
    Once fired ID .268".
    Sized case ID .262".
    Loaded round OD .295".
    From the advice I got sounds like I need a bushing for size .292". Will be ordering dies tomorrow.
    zinger
     
  8. Varmint Hunter

    Varmint Hunter Well-Known Member

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    I use a Sinclair concentricity gauge but there are many others available. Without a reliable gauge it would be very difficult to determine where the problem enters into the equation.
    Unlike some of the other posters, I doubt that it is caused by your seater die. If it was the seater die causing the problem, I would expect it to display a similar problem with new or once fired cases. My guess is that it is a sizing die induced problem.

    But its kind of hard to diagnose from here. [​IMG]

    VH
     
  9. NUN

    NUN Member

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    I have several sets of Redding FL and NK bushing dies, along with RCBS benchrest, Lee, Lyman, Hornady etc. I like the bushing FL dies best as I can adjust the amount of shoulder push back by using competition shell holders, the NK dies won't tough the shoulder, at least all the bushing NK dies I have now, 223, 243, 7mm-08, 308, 300WM. I also found the bushing FL dies only resize the bases 0.004" to 0.006" so maybe my chambers and the dies fit better than others. I don't use the expander button on any of the bushing dies and polish the buttons down to fit better on most of my other die sets. Some of my wildcat chambers are short and some are long in relation to the sizing dies so the competition shell holders make it easier to adjust the dies to the chamber. I have found that there isn't one way only. Each rifle has it's own way of doing things. The Hornaday seaters never were consistent in the amount of runout and usually the runout was way beyond what I consider to be close enough, i.e. < 0.003" for varmints out to 5 or 6 hundred yards. I have at least 8 sets for rifle and piston and don't bother with the seaters now. I do like the sizers and the elliptical expander, but again, for close work I use a benchrest type of seater.

    If you can't get things to work out try making a chamber cast and measure everything. Weight the cases also. I'm having some trouble with a 223 not grouping. I an using IMI cases and was getting groups around 1.25" with flyers. I had weighed some cases earlier and they were running around 94.5 gr after trimming, turning and primer pocket uniforming but them one would go 91.7 or 96.8 so out of 50 I ended up with 30 weighing from 94 to 95 gr. I shot a 5 round one hole group that was a .150" with Barnes 40gr VLS, 27.5 Benchrest, Rem 71/2, seated 2.180" which is 0.020" of the lands. That's what the Ruger SS was shooting before I changed cases. It doesn't take much to make the groups open or close. Lots to learn and the information is available just watch for the egos and check any loading info before you try it.
     
  10. TOM H

    TOM H Well-Known Member

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    I use Wilson dies and if need sizing I use a Redding body die only. My 6.5/284 is a tight neck. Neck tension plus using Fl Sizing dies with a expander ball can move the neck forward and change the seating depth of the bullet. Another problem is your powder might want to try 50.5/R-22 with those 142gr and those bullets do best in the 2800/2900fps. Might want to go to benchrest.com and look at the long range as they have good information about the 6.5/284. Well good luck!