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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
6-284 long range antelope load
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<blockquote data-quote="Fiftydriver" data-source="post: 34942" data-attributes="member: 10"><p>Iron worker,</p><p></p><p>First off, on the powder front. Your going to have to go with what your rifle tells you it likes. If it likes H-1000 loaded to 3500 fps then that is where you may have to stay.</p><p></p><p>Still I find it a little interesting you are getting such high velocity drops with the Rl powders and especially with the Hodgdon extreme powders which include all of the extruded stick powders from them.</p><p></p><p>They are the most stabile in varying temperatures that I have ever tested. Sure there is still some variation but not much over normal temp changes like morning to day hunting.</p><p></p><p>I have seen a 80 fps increase with my rifle shooting in temps in the 10-20 degree F range in winter yote hunting and then shooting in 90 degree weather in the summer for chucks. But I have never witnessed anything like what you stated when comparing morning temp to afternoon temps which here in Montana will range from 40 to 50 degrees easily.</p><p></p><p>Most I have logged in velocity variation with my load is around 50 fps in such condition.</p><p></p><p>To be honest, when shooting at extreme range, this will always be a slight problem that will require you to adjust for higher or lower temps. It really shows up once we stretch things past 500 yards.</p><p></p><p>My tests seem to tell me that using a very fast or very slow powder for a certain case capacity will prove unsatisfactory.</p><p></p><p>That said, the very slow powders will usually give amazing E.S. numbers and that may result in fewer fliers.</p><p></p><p>While the faster powders will often produce better group sizes at short to moderate ranges(100 to 300 yards).</p><p></p><p>The big cased, small bores are tricky little animals to tame, sometimes its easy, sometimes it an ongoing chore.</p><p></p><p>I would still try some H4831 or H4831SC and see how they perform in the velocity spread area.</p><p></p><p>As for fliers. That is a topic worthy of a novel and no one really has a scientific fact as to why they happen. </p><p></p><p>My personal theory is that every load produces a rythmic vibration pattern in the barrel as the bullet travels down it and finally exits.</p><p></p><p>This pattern actually flexes the barrel to some degree. With loads that the rifle likes, this pattern is very consistant from shot to shot and for loads it does not like the vibration pattern is not as consistant which postitions the muzzle in a different location from one shot to the other.</p><p></p><p>I can not prove this but I have tested it quite a bit with very light barreled rifles in rounds such as the 257 STW and 300 RUM. Even with top quality barrels and machine, the lighter barrels are much more picky about loads then a heavy barreled rifle will be.</p><p></p><p>In my testing, I was using Lilja barrels on all rifles and chambered with the same reamer for each caliber. Bedding was as close to the same as I could possibly make it and quality stocks were used in each.</p><p></p><p>In both cases, the heavier barrel shot far more different loads very well whereas, the light barrel certainly shot very well with some of the same loads, it shot noticably looser groups with many more as well.</p><p></p><p>Fliers are a tricky thing. Barrel heat and bore fouling can cause them with some bullets, simply some bullets themselves are not made concentric and will create fliers.</p><p></p><p>Most fliers are human error showing up on paper but since you obviously are getting better groups with certain loads over others, I know you would not be the problem here.</p><p></p><p>Basically its the relationship between the load and the rifle and its mechanical set up. I know for a fact that a poor thread fit to a receiver will result in fliers, as will a barrel that has bee over tightened.</p><p></p><p>Many smiths think they need to get teh 6 foot cheater bar out to tighten down a barrel, this could be the worst thing to accuracy there is.</p><p></p><p>We simply need to have the barrel stay tight when shooting, nothing more. </p><p></p><p>Hell, BR shooters tighten their barrels down just slightly tighter then hadn tight adn remove them with little raceway wrenchs. that tells you something about accuracy and barrel tightness.</p><p></p><p>Other things that cause fliers are bedding problems, to loose or again to tight of action screws. On Rem M700's ADL(which is the most accurate stock design for the 700), tightening the middle action screw to much, these should only be snug, NEVER TIGHT as they flex the action alot.</p><p></p><p>There are a host of things that will cause fliers.</p><p></p><p>Once you have corrected any of these things that you can correct, the biggest thing and hardest thing sometimes for a shooter is to listen to his or her rifle and adjust their loading to what they are hearing.</p><p></p><p>Far to many shooters are looking to make a certain bullet shoot to a certain velocity and sometimes they do and sometimes the barrel gets destroyed trying to make it work.</p><p></p><p>Experimenting is great but in a round like the 6mm-284, it will use up alot of barrel life as well.</p><p></p><p>Have you played with seating depth to try to adjust out the flyiers? This will often do it as well.</p><p></p><p>I generally start with the bullets into the lands and then load other test groups 0.010" off, 0.020" off and 0.030" off the lands and shoot then all. Generally you will see a prefereance for one of the four test lengths and then you can go in and test that length further.</p><p></p><p>For example, say teh load that is 0.010" off shoots the best. I would then take that same load and load up five more test loads or say 5 to 6 rounds at 0.005" off, 0.007" off, 0.010" off, 0.012" off and finally 0.015" off the lands.</p><p></p><p>Go out and shoot them, find the best of the lot and then load up 12 or 15 of that best load and shoot several 3, 4 or 5 shot groups to check for fliers. This testing is best done at 200-300 yards for all the load testing as this will magnify any advantage one load has over the other.</p><p></p><p>At 100 yards, one load may be much better then the other but comparing a .300" group to a .350" group is tough to do. At 300 yards, you will be looking at a variation of probably nearly 3/4" to 1" difference in group size.</p><p></p><p>Hope this helps a little!</p><p></p><p>Good Shooting!!</p><p></p><p>Kirby Allen(50)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fiftydriver, post: 34942, member: 10"] Iron worker, First off, on the powder front. Your going to have to go with what your rifle tells you it likes. If it likes H-1000 loaded to 3500 fps then that is where you may have to stay. Still I find it a little interesting you are getting such high velocity drops with the Rl powders and especially with the Hodgdon extreme powders which include all of the extruded stick powders from them. They are the most stabile in varying temperatures that I have ever tested. Sure there is still some variation but not much over normal temp changes like morning to day hunting. I have seen a 80 fps increase with my rifle shooting in temps in the 10-20 degree F range in winter yote hunting and then shooting in 90 degree weather in the summer for chucks. But I have never witnessed anything like what you stated when comparing morning temp to afternoon temps which here in Montana will range from 40 to 50 degrees easily. Most I have logged in velocity variation with my load is around 50 fps in such condition. To be honest, when shooting at extreme range, this will always be a slight problem that will require you to adjust for higher or lower temps. It really shows up once we stretch things past 500 yards. My tests seem to tell me that using a very fast or very slow powder for a certain case capacity will prove unsatisfactory. That said, the very slow powders will usually give amazing E.S. numbers and that may result in fewer fliers. While the faster powders will often produce better group sizes at short to moderate ranges(100 to 300 yards). The big cased, small bores are tricky little animals to tame, sometimes its easy, sometimes it an ongoing chore. I would still try some H4831 or H4831SC and see how they perform in the velocity spread area. As for fliers. That is a topic worthy of a novel and no one really has a scientific fact as to why they happen. My personal theory is that every load produces a rythmic vibration pattern in the barrel as the bullet travels down it and finally exits. This pattern actually flexes the barrel to some degree. With loads that the rifle likes, this pattern is very consistant from shot to shot and for loads it does not like the vibration pattern is not as consistant which postitions the muzzle in a different location from one shot to the other. I can not prove this but I have tested it quite a bit with very light barreled rifles in rounds such as the 257 STW and 300 RUM. Even with top quality barrels and machine, the lighter barrels are much more picky about loads then a heavy barreled rifle will be. In my testing, I was using Lilja barrels on all rifles and chambered with the same reamer for each caliber. Bedding was as close to the same as I could possibly make it and quality stocks were used in each. In both cases, the heavier barrel shot far more different loads very well whereas, the light barrel certainly shot very well with some of the same loads, it shot noticably looser groups with many more as well. Fliers are a tricky thing. Barrel heat and bore fouling can cause them with some bullets, simply some bullets themselves are not made concentric and will create fliers. Most fliers are human error showing up on paper but since you obviously are getting better groups with certain loads over others, I know you would not be the problem here. Basically its the relationship between the load and the rifle and its mechanical set up. I know for a fact that a poor thread fit to a receiver will result in fliers, as will a barrel that has bee over tightened. Many smiths think they need to get teh 6 foot cheater bar out to tighten down a barrel, this could be the worst thing to accuracy there is. We simply need to have the barrel stay tight when shooting, nothing more. Hell, BR shooters tighten their barrels down just slightly tighter then hadn tight adn remove them with little raceway wrenchs. that tells you something about accuracy and barrel tightness. Other things that cause fliers are bedding problems, to loose or again to tight of action screws. On Rem M700's ADL(which is the most accurate stock design for the 700), tightening the middle action screw to much, these should only be snug, NEVER TIGHT as they flex the action alot. There are a host of things that will cause fliers. Once you have corrected any of these things that you can correct, the biggest thing and hardest thing sometimes for a shooter is to listen to his or her rifle and adjust their loading to what they are hearing. Far to many shooters are looking to make a certain bullet shoot to a certain velocity and sometimes they do and sometimes the barrel gets destroyed trying to make it work. Experimenting is great but in a round like the 6mm-284, it will use up alot of barrel life as well. Have you played with seating depth to try to adjust out the flyiers? This will often do it as well. I generally start with the bullets into the lands and then load other test groups 0.010" off, 0.020" off and 0.030" off the lands and shoot then all. Generally you will see a prefereance for one of the four test lengths and then you can go in and test that length further. For example, say teh load that is 0.010" off shoots the best. I would then take that same load and load up five more test loads or say 5 to 6 rounds at 0.005" off, 0.007" off, 0.010" off, 0.012" off and finally 0.015" off the lands. Go out and shoot them, find the best of the lot and then load up 12 or 15 of that best load and shoot several 3, 4 or 5 shot groups to check for fliers. This testing is best done at 200-300 yards for all the load testing as this will magnify any advantage one load has over the other. At 100 yards, one load may be much better then the other but comparing a .300" group to a .350" group is tough to do. At 300 yards, you will be looking at a variation of probably nearly 3/4" to 1" difference in group size. Hope this helps a little! Good Shooting!! Kirby Allen(50) [/QUOTE]
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