Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
This guys last name doesn't happen to be Ferguson does it, if it is, RUN, don't walk away from him!!!
4000 fps in a 7mm STW w/140 Bullet?
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This guys last name doesn't happen to be Ferguson does it, if it is, RUN, don't walk away from him!!!
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Not the one I was talking about.
I won,t mention the name of any bad Gunsmith but I will not hesitate to mention the name of a good
Gunsmith, I would warn about using anyone making claims that stretch the limits that much.
J E CUSTOM
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
I do not mention names of bad smiths, I mention names of people that make dangerous claims so that it educates potential customers to avoid false claims and potential danger.
In my opinion, those that know of these people and say nothing are not helping anyone. But you better be speaking facts if you are calling people out by name that is for sure and you better be ready to back up your claims with facts. In the case of this specific smith, after many months of pressuring him, he admitted that his recommended loads often loosened primer pockets to the point of being useless after only one firing. He was fine with that as "Brass is cheap, performance was all he was after".
In my opinion, that is reckless and foolish, not to mention dangerous when he is pushing these products on the public, often uneducated public.
Again, if you know better by experience, its your obligation to call out these individuals and protect the public, especially those new to shooting and hunting. If that offends anyone I apologize but the number that are offended are hopefully far fewer then those that may have been helped to avoid getting caught in a sales pitch that could be potentially dangerous.
In my opinion, those that know of these people and say nothing are not helping anyone. But you better be speaking facts if you are calling people out by name that is for sure and you better be ready to back up your claims with facts. In the case of this specific smith, after many months of pressuring him, he admitted that his recommended loads often loosened primer pockets to the point of being useless after only one firing. He was fine with that as "Brass is cheap, performance was all he was after".
In my opinion, that is reckless and foolish, not to mention dangerous when he is pushing these products on the public, often uneducated public.
Again, if you know better by experience, its your obligation to call out these individuals and protect the public, especially those new to shooting and hunting. If that offends anyone I apologize but the number that are offended are hopefully far fewer then those that may have been helped to avoid getting caught in a sales pitch that could be potentially dangerous.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
You are right Kirby, Anyone that places others at risk needs to be identified and people need to be
warned. A good smith will just refuse to do something that is dangerous or over the head of the
shooter that might get him in trouble with his lack of experience.
I just always figure that there are two sides to every story and try not to take sides unless I know
first hand all of the facts as I,m Sure you do.
We all know that there are Bad Gunsmiths out there but there are also bad customers. I have dealt
with bad work before from people that call themselves Gunsmiths, and and customers that just don,t
know what they want but they are easy because I never start a project until we are on the same page.
You have more experience than I have with Bad Smiths and bad customer and I know you have had to deal with both a lot more times than I,so your judgment in these matters goes a long way with me.
The man that got me started was the worst at people skills that I had ever seen and I even told him
that. But he was the most particular and precise Gun Smith I ever saw and his work was as close to perfect as humanly possible.
So did this make him a bad smith? No just a bad person to deal with.
The Smith That I was talking about I a very knowledgeable Smith But he has people working for him
that are not and he descent manage them so they do bad work and his reputation sufferers because
he is responsible and does nothing about. So In my opinion he is a bad smith and a bad business
man.
J E CUSTOM
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
I would agree with your comments. This smith I referred to is a person that I contacted early on in my carreer as a firearm manufacturer because he was making the 4100 fps claim with 100 gr bullets in the 257 HOT TAMALE which he claimed was his design.
Well, I researched his wildcat as I wanted a hot 257 magnum chambering for my reamer list but after talking with him, I quickly realized it was nothing more then the standard 257 STW which he claimed was his design but in fact had been being chambered in rifles long before the dates he claimed to develope the NEW wildcat. When I asked him about that he attacked me personally as having no experience and that I needed to listen to more seasoned smiths before questioning anyone.
Well, I got a 257 STW reamer and chambered many rifles but even out of 30" long barrels of pretty much any make, the most velocity we were able to get with GOOD CASE LIFE wa around 3900 fps. A full 200 fps less then what he was claiming and in a barrel that was 2" longer then he was recommending to use at 28".
I contacted him again and asked HOW he was getting this velocity level and what his case life was. He never would give me any load data as he said he developes the load for every rifle he builds and only tells it to his customers so they can duplicate it. ANOTHER RED FLAG.
Well, years went by, I saw him making his claims all over the web but left it alone for the most part. I developed my 257 Allen Magnum which WILL produce a legit 4100 fps with 100 gr bullet weights but it needs a 30" barrel to do so and it has a significantly larger case capacity then the STW.
Then one day I had a local guy show up at the shop basically just checking out my shop and what I had to offer. He saw some of my wildcats on the loading bench so wanted to know what I offered in 25 caliber. I told him about my 257 AM and what it would produce and he said, "Hell, I have a 257 Hot Tamale" that will match that with less powder......
I asked him who made the rifle for him and he said a smith by the name of Ferguson. I asked him if he would be willing to bring the rifle to the shop so I could compare it to my 257 Allen Magnum and to my surpise he agreed. When he brought it up he also brought a box of ammo that was listed at 4090 fps with the Barnes TSX bullets. I asked him if this was a confirmed velocity or if it was what the smith had told him the load produced. Well he got a bit annoyed with me and said if thats what Ferguson claimed the load produced it was as good as gospel to him.
I asked him if he could bring the rifle up to the shop so I could look it over. To my surpise he said yes. A few days later he showed up with the rifle and a box of ammo. I asked him if we could shoot the rifle over the chrono to see how consistant this wildcat was in velocity with that bullet weight. Again, to my surpise he agreed. Sure enough, three shots over the chrono averaged 4075 fps which AMAZED me. This was amazing to me, how was he doing this????
I admit I was feeling a bit sheepish after being proven wrong. I then asked him how long his brass lasted at this level of performance and his reply surpised the hell out of me. He said when you load to this level, you should only load the brass one time because its such an intense load. This was Fergusons recommendation and thats why HE designed the 257 Hot Tamale brass to be cold formed on an inexpensive case...........
I asked him if I could check his primer pockets just to see how loose they were. Well, to say they were loose would be an understatement. In fact a new primer could be pushed in by hand and if the case head was tapped on the loading bench the primer would back out of the pocet.
I set him down and explained to him the dangers of what he was doing and what could happen if he got a case with a weak case head. Again to my surpise, he actually listened to my recommendation and when he heard you could get 6-7 firings per case with a very good high performance load he was very interested so we developed him a good load at 3825 fps with the same bullet and he was converted to RESPONSIBLE loading of high performance wildcats.
Well, after he left, I shot Ferguson an e-mail telling him about the events of the day. he replied basically telling me that There was nothing unsafe about what he was doing and that the brass was plenty strong for this level of performance but would never comment on the very short brass life.
I do not know what happened, maybe several customers got annoyed or maybe he had a rifle let loose but after pestering him for several months and getting nothing but a stone wall on his performance claims, he admitted that he only recommended loading the brass for one firing and throwing it away after that. All he wanted was velocity and it ment nothing to him to only get one firing per case.
Again, I e-mailed questioning him on the responsibility on him if a customer got a fast lot of powder or a case with a flaw in the case head. He again attacked me personally telling me that I was to young to understand that this was simply what you had to do to get extreme performance.
Last e-mail I sent back to him was stating how my lack of experience had developed my 257 AM that would get legit 4100 fps performance and do so with very good brass life with no danger to the person shooting the rifle.
Ever since that day, after realizing he had NO interest in the safety of his customers, whenever anyone asks about him or his wildcat I offer this real life experience with him and his wildcats to educate them to avoid everything to do with him. In my opinion, his actions are irresponsible and in reality DANGEROUS. In this day and age I can not imagine he is still in business and has not been sued yet but I guess he may be lucky.
Some may say, "How could you load this hot and not know your WAY over pressure with normal high pressure signs". Well, just to test things out, I made up a Rem 700 in the 257 STW and loaded it up using RL-25 with the 100 gr TSX bullet and was able to push 4100 fps in its 30" barrel with no increase in bolt life effort or extraction issues. Also, there were no ejector marks on the case head to really speak of. Many do not realize that with a properly squared receiver, pressure signs can be very difficult to read at times if your not checking your primer pockets. At that level of velocity, the primers pretty much would fall out of the case and all brass was spoiled on the first firing.
Again, I do not go around flaming other smiths, in fact this is about the only one I have ever mentioned anything ill toward but I WILL comment whenever someone asks about this specific guy or speak up just as you do when someone makes a post about velocity predictions that are WAY over what they should me. There are no free lunches. Velocity is a simple function of pressure and bore time. NO magic formula to get extreme velocity.
Again, I agree totally with your comments and I only comment on Ferguson because I have a large amount of first hand experience dealing with him directly and with some of his rifles and loads.
Well, I researched his wildcat as I wanted a hot 257 magnum chambering for my reamer list but after talking with him, I quickly realized it was nothing more then the standard 257 STW which he claimed was his design but in fact had been being chambered in rifles long before the dates he claimed to develope the NEW wildcat. When I asked him about that he attacked me personally as having no experience and that I needed to listen to more seasoned smiths before questioning anyone.
Well, I got a 257 STW reamer and chambered many rifles but even out of 30" long barrels of pretty much any make, the most velocity we were able to get with GOOD CASE LIFE wa around 3900 fps. A full 200 fps less then what he was claiming and in a barrel that was 2" longer then he was recommending to use at 28".
I contacted him again and asked HOW he was getting this velocity level and what his case life was. He never would give me any load data as he said he developes the load for every rifle he builds and only tells it to his customers so they can duplicate it. ANOTHER RED FLAG.
Well, years went by, I saw him making his claims all over the web but left it alone for the most part. I developed my 257 Allen Magnum which WILL produce a legit 4100 fps with 100 gr bullet weights but it needs a 30" barrel to do so and it has a significantly larger case capacity then the STW.
Then one day I had a local guy show up at the shop basically just checking out my shop and what I had to offer. He saw some of my wildcats on the loading bench so wanted to know what I offered in 25 caliber. I told him about my 257 AM and what it would produce and he said, "Hell, I have a 257 Hot Tamale" that will match that with less powder......
I asked him who made the rifle for him and he said a smith by the name of Ferguson. I asked him if he would be willing to bring the rifle to the shop so I could compare it to my 257 Allen Magnum and to my surpise he agreed. When he brought it up he also brought a box of ammo that was listed at 4090 fps with the Barnes TSX bullets. I asked him if this was a confirmed velocity or if it was what the smith had told him the load produced. Well he got a bit annoyed with me and said if thats what Ferguson claimed the load produced it was as good as gospel to him.
I asked him if he could bring the rifle up to the shop so I could look it over. To my surpise he said yes. A few days later he showed up with the rifle and a box of ammo. I asked him if we could shoot the rifle over the chrono to see how consistant this wildcat was in velocity with that bullet weight. Again, to my surpise he agreed. Sure enough, three shots over the chrono averaged 4075 fps which AMAZED me. This was amazing to me, how was he doing this????
I admit I was feeling a bit sheepish after being proven wrong. I then asked him how long his brass lasted at this level of performance and his reply surpised the hell out of me. He said when you load to this level, you should only load the brass one time because its such an intense load. This was Fergusons recommendation and thats why HE designed the 257 Hot Tamale brass to be cold formed on an inexpensive case...........
I asked him if I could check his primer pockets just to see how loose they were. Well, to say they were loose would be an understatement. In fact a new primer could be pushed in by hand and if the case head was tapped on the loading bench the primer would back out of the pocet.
I set him down and explained to him the dangers of what he was doing and what could happen if he got a case with a weak case head. Again to my surpise, he actually listened to my recommendation and when he heard you could get 6-7 firings per case with a very good high performance load he was very interested so we developed him a good load at 3825 fps with the same bullet and he was converted to RESPONSIBLE loading of high performance wildcats.
Well, after he left, I shot Ferguson an e-mail telling him about the events of the day. he replied basically telling me that There was nothing unsafe about what he was doing and that the brass was plenty strong for this level of performance but would never comment on the very short brass life.
I do not know what happened, maybe several customers got annoyed or maybe he had a rifle let loose but after pestering him for several months and getting nothing but a stone wall on his performance claims, he admitted that he only recommended loading the brass for one firing and throwing it away after that. All he wanted was velocity and it ment nothing to him to only get one firing per case.
Again, I e-mailed questioning him on the responsibility on him if a customer got a fast lot of powder or a case with a flaw in the case head. He again attacked me personally telling me that I was to young to understand that this was simply what you had to do to get extreme performance.
Last e-mail I sent back to him was stating how my lack of experience had developed my 257 AM that would get legit 4100 fps performance and do so with very good brass life with no danger to the person shooting the rifle.
Ever since that day, after realizing he had NO interest in the safety of his customers, whenever anyone asks about him or his wildcat I offer this real life experience with him and his wildcats to educate them to avoid everything to do with him. In my opinion, his actions are irresponsible and in reality DANGEROUS. In this day and age I can not imagine he is still in business and has not been sued yet but I guess he may be lucky.
Some may say, "How could you load this hot and not know your WAY over pressure with normal high pressure signs". Well, just to test things out, I made up a Rem 700 in the 257 STW and loaded it up using RL-25 with the 100 gr TSX bullet and was able to push 4100 fps in its 30" barrel with no increase in bolt life effort or extraction issues. Also, there were no ejector marks on the case head to really speak of. Many do not realize that with a properly squared receiver, pressure signs can be very difficult to read at times if your not checking your primer pockets. At that level of velocity, the primers pretty much would fall out of the case and all brass was spoiled on the first firing.
Again, I do not go around flaming other smiths, in fact this is about the only one I have ever mentioned anything ill toward but I WILL comment whenever someone asks about this specific guy or speak up just as you do when someone makes a post about velocity predictions that are WAY over what they should me. There are no free lunches. Velocity is a simple function of pressure and bore time. NO magic formula to get extreme velocity.
Again, I agree totally with your comments and I only comment on Ferguson because I have a large amount of first hand experience dealing with him directly and with some of his rifles and loads.
Rupe
Well-Known Member
So does that mean when I tell people about my. 22 long rifle that I pull the bullet and pour in a compressed load of 2400 and then seat a 300 grain cast lead bullet as hard as I can compress and make sure it has a super duper crimp. And when fired threw my .22LR Christmas Valley Sagerat single shot magnum go getter rifle and obtain 6000fps from the the top of the reciever that your going to call me out and I'll have to explain why I did such a stupid thing? Course you will have to wait until I get out of the hospital!
Signed. Rupe (No Nose) Bullshi*ski
PS- I tried to use the one fired brass again, but I couldn't fine all the pieces. durn-it!
Signed. Rupe (No Nose) Bullshi*ski
PS- I tried to use the one fired brass again, but I couldn't fine all the pieces. durn-it!
Trickymissfit
Well-Known Member
everybody here should read Bob Greanleaf's article he wrote for P.S. years back on how to blow up an action. It's easier than most people think! This guy is basicly shooting proof loads as a normal load, that will eventually cause some serious trauma.
gary
varmintH8R
Well-Known Member
The venerable .257 Hot Tamale. Now I have officially heard everything. Unbelievable.
Thanks for the good and interesting posts. Always good to remember if something seems to fly in the face of years of known data, it deserves skepticism. No free lunch, as Kirby said.
I am working up a straight wall .45 wildcat, if anyone is interested. It will throw a 350 grainer at 800fps. I'm calling it the .45 Wet Burrito. Get your orders in.
Thanks for the good and interesting posts. Always good to remember if something seems to fly in the face of years of known data, it deserves skepticism. No free lunch, as Kirby said.
I am working up a straight wall .45 wildcat, if anyone is interested. It will throw a 350 grainer at 800fps. I'm calling it the .45 Wet Burrito. Get your orders in.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Anyone that has studied the theory of "Detonation" realizes how close you can run to that ragged edge and never realize how close you come to doing serious damage to a firearm. The larger the case capacity, the slower burn rate the powder being used, the more dangerous this can be because there is more unburnt powder left in the bore at the point of detonation. That being the point when you reach critical pressures and all powder left in the bore ignites and burns nearly instantly instead of progressively.
That is what causes blown primers in best cases and destroyed rifles in worst cases.
The highest max average pressure for a 7mm cartridge is probably the Weatherby Magnum version at 65,000 psi using SAAMI transducer measuring systems.
If that 'smith was near me, I'd consider betting him a bushel basket full of hundred dollar bills that his 7 STW would not push a 140 out over 3600 fps average from a 26" barrel with a max average pressure at 65,000 psi.
I had a 'smith back in the '60's tell me his .264 Win Mag would push out 140's at 3500 fps at normal safe pressures. After I offered a similar bet with him, he refused saying he didn't want to take my money.
I'd stay far away from that guy.
If that 'smith was near me, I'd consider betting him a bushel basket full of hundred dollar bills that his 7 STW would not push a 140 out over 3600 fps average from a 26" barrel with a max average pressure at 65,000 psi.
I had a 'smith back in the '60's tell me his .264 Win Mag would push out 140's at 3500 fps at normal safe pressures. After I offered a similar bet with him, he refused saying he didn't want to take my money.
I'd stay far away from that guy.
Rupe
Well-Known Member
No kidding ! I woildn't want to be near him when he pulls the trigger.
My last post just shows how stupid peaple can be. They just want to one up everyone else, but just don't know how that can injure others that are not informed. My advise to those that are new to reloading is to stay with in what the books tell you! Those people know what their doing! Stay safe- follow the rules!
Rupe
My last post just shows how stupid peaple can be. They just want to one up everyone else, but just don't know how that can injure others that are not informed. My advise to those that are new to reloading is to stay with in what the books tell you! Those people know what their doing! Stay safe- follow the rules!
Rupe
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I get 3222 out of my 7stw with 162 gn bullet 29 inch barrel . with not pressure signs but not above max load in book . but group not that good at .5 inch at 100 yards . I don't think its any need to push a rifle that hard if it don't group . the gun smith I work with said not to push the a-max over 3300 or the tend to open up to early . never tried 140 out of it o
Rupe
Well-Known Member
That is what anyone should get if they are passing out dangerous loads to others. If he wants to hurt himself, fine but don't pass it on to others. That is just flat WRONG!
And if anyone gets any load info. from another you should always check to see if it is in tbe book. If it's not then don't use it. IMO
Bid on over $3000 worth of reloading equipment, bullets, cases, and reloads. It was an estate sale and the old guy that had died had a good rep. But I have no idea what these reloads are, so I am going to pull every bullet and toss the poweder. I am not going to hurt because of someone elses possible over max loads. I have.got alot of pulling to do, but my body and my guns are more important then saving a litte work and cash. Besides I only spent $425. for all of it and I've already got my money back out of it and still have more to sale yet. I just think is a wise thing to pull them then take a chance. But that's just me.
Rupe
