3650 yards target nailed !!!

[bigngreen]

I find it odd that this would bunch anyone's panties up, they are pushing the max even on getting a hold in their optic, if you don't push it you'll never learn beyond the range your at and when you push it hard the wheels will fall of so you go back and take what you learn and give it another go, or just launch some bullets and see if you can throw some dirt on it and have some fun at any rate hardly a reason to get bunched up!!
Every shot fired in a long range black powder cartridge match goes sub sonic mid way down or sooner and you screw a scope to one of those rifles and it will shoot incredibly well. At some point we'll be pushing the transonic so hard even with cartridges like the Cheytac that some bullet design will have to focus one a clean transition vs staying ahead of the barrier. Sounds like good times to me

 

[SidecarFlip]

Kind of reminds me of a guy who owned a bike like mine. He took the stock bike (it makes 150 horsepower in stock form) and built the bike to the point it was good for nothing but running the salt flats, had to be trailered everywhere, not street legal and he disappeared from our forum a while ago. I think he either killed himself or scared the **** out of himself, or both.

Pushing the limits is fun sometimes, always costly and not always good. My panties are never in a bunch, I don't wear panties.......

.................though I hear they are the cat's meow for long road rides on a bike.

Opening day here will find me hunting whitetails on private property. A long shot will probably be 50 yards or so.....

 

[Fiftydriver]

To some there is training value with shooting a projectile to the extent of a stable ballistic profile. At times precision may not be the goal but rather learning from the effects of multiple environment conditions and hit probability, even though low, all while under changing conditions. If this is a goal the sure way to confirm is to shoot it. In this case no doubt consistency is difficult if not impractical and hit probability will be low.

As such, I personally would not choose a similar ballistics capable cartridge for this type of range experience. Too expensive for me for the training value and too difficult to verify impacts. I'll stick to my 308 and 1400 yards for this purpose. Both to me would have similar training value, one is just more conducive. And for others, to each his own.

What you say is certainly true but that is not what these guys were coming off on the video trying to portray. While I agree with your comments, IF that is what these guys were doing, they should have stated as such.

 

[Fiftydriver]

I find it odd that this would bunch anyone's panties up, they are pushing the max even on getting a hold in their optic, if you don't push it you'll never learn beyond the range your at and when you push it hard the wheels will fall of so you go back and take what you learn and give it another go, or just launch some bullets and see if you can throw some dirt on it and have some fun at any rate hardly a reason to get bunched up!!
Every shot fired in a long range black powder cartridge match goes sub sonic mid way down or sooner and you screw a scope to one of those rifles and it will shoot incredibly well. At some point we'll be pushing the transonic so hard even with cartridges like the Cheytac that some bullet design will have to focus one a clean transition vs staying ahead of the barrier. Sounds like good times to me

I could not agree more with your comments but if someone that did not know better watched this video, they would think, ****, I can get a 375 Cheytac and have a rifle that will hit a target at 2 miles.

Suppose I have a unique perspective as I am a rifle manufacturer that builds rifles in this class of performance and some well above this level. Still, I have customers coming to me all the time saying they saw a rifle that shoots consistently at 2 miles and that they want me to build them a rifle like the one they saw.

After a couple hours of reeducating these guys and explaining WHY this is not realistic in most applications. It can take a lot of time out of a work day trying to educate new comers to our sport.

Would say I have pushed the ballistic envelope as hard as most out there and have a good idea what will and will not work in the real world so when I see these videos, it kind of rubs me the wrong way because I know there are a load of guys out there that simply do not have the experience to watch this and know what they are seeing.

That is my only point.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Kind of reminds me of a guy who owned a bike like mine. He took the stock bike (it makes 150 horsepower in stock form) and built the bike to the point it was good for nothing but running the salt flats, had to be trailered everywhere, not street legal and he disappeared from our forum a while ago. I think he either killed himself or scared the **** out of himself, or both.

Pushing the limits is fun sometimes, always costly and not always good. My panties are never in a bunch, I don't wear panties.......

.................though I hear they are the cat's meow for long road rides on a bike.

Opening day here will find me hunting whitetails on private property. A long shot will probably be 50 yards or so.....

Nothing wrong with pushing the limits of your sport. That's how we make improvements and increase performance levels. My only problem is making something look one way when in reality, things are much different then they are TRYING to make something look.

 

[FEENIX]

Oh boy.... now ya gone and done it Ed!!! Needed a little excitemnt with your coffee this morning?

Wish they said what bullet and velocity they shooting? Here is the best case scenario I can come with. 425 gr CEB (1.0 BC) @ 3200 fps (like Kiwi Greg's load) @ 6500" elevation. That get's them to 3650 yds just before going transonic.

I know Mark ... sorry but as you can see with my initial comment, that's all I can say.

 

[Broz]

I guess I missed what the actual target size was, does anyone know for sure? In the video does he not get two consecutive hits? If so I think that takes some of the luck out of it and shows they have dialed in and found the dope. Just my take on it, and I am pretty surprised at some responses to this. If I had made these shots and had it in video I would have posted it. And I would have not been impressed with anyone playing it down. I have seen first hand what two different LRKM's can do at past 2500 yards. Now 3600 is a heck of a lot farther, but 1 moa consistency at 2500~2700 yards is reality for the LRKM and Shawn's video at 2751 shows 3/4 moa hits. Some think as soon as you go subsonic the game is over. I am here to tell you first hand that is not true with all bullets and altitudes. So it is coming boys like it or not.

Just my take on all this.

Jeff

 

[Fiftydriver]

Its marked as 12 feet x 12 feet target size.

They SAY he got two consecutive hits, I did not see much that convinced me of that. I could not really see any sign of a hit at all on the targets but that's just me.

 

[Pdvdh]

Doesn't qualify for the Hide. I didn't watch the video, but they'd need a 10-shot group or... banned for life.

 

[Pdvdh]

I have seen first hand what two different LRKM's can do at past 2500 yards. Now 3600 is a heck of a lot farther, but 1 moa consistency at 2500~2700 yards is reality for the LRKM and Shawn's video at 2751 shows 3/4 moa hits. Some think as soon as you go subsonic the game is over. I am here to tell you first hand that is not true with all bullets and altitudes. So it is coming boys like it or not.

Just my take on all this.

Jeff

At what range are your bullets subsonic under the environmental conditions you reference 1 moa to 2500-2700 yds?

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Hey fellas, any comments I made about sonic transition were analytical. As in why they might have been marginally successful in hitting a 12'x12' target. If they want to sling unstable projos at a 12'x12' target 2 miles away so they can say they did it, it's fine by me. I'm just saying I would probably not waste powder, projos and barrel life on such an endeavor, other than just to see how they react to the transiton.

I would love to be able hit an MOA size target @ 2 miles with some degree of predictability. But occasionally hitting a 12'x12' target doesn't get me real excited. If it does them or anyone else, have at it

Now watching Kiwi Greg' and Hunt The Distance videos is pretty cool. Watching Jeff hit a Sub MOA rock at 2270 yds was pretty cool too gun)

 

[Fiftydriver]

My 338 AMs in a 32" barrel length will hold accuracy out to around 2900 yards or a bit more at my 3400 ft elevation using the 300 gr SMK. Past that, they fall on their face, nothing resembling consistency in any way.

When I was testing the 265 gr AT RBBTs from the old wildcat bullet company, was getting them to 3550 fps and on two different occasions went three for three hits on my 20" round gong at a measured 3010 yards. This was measured initially using wilde optical range finder and then confirmed with GPS and Google Earth matched up exactly.

I HAVE NOT pushed things any farther then this, simply because its hard to find this much distance where its not a day effort to set up a target.

I also have not pushed the 300 gr Berger to its limits in my 338 Allen Magnum. The load using the 300 gr SMK was loaded to just a hair over 3300 fps. I have tested the Berger bullets in the new Bertram brass and can push 3400 fps pretty easily so I would think that this would extend supersonic ranges to 3000 yards pretty easily.

Plus, from what BROZ has been saying, the berger does better through transonic velocities then the SMK so that would be even more promising.

From what these boys describe in the video, I would bet they are shooting standard 375 Cheytac loaded ammunition or loading to standard Cheytac specs which if anyone has looked these numbers up, they are far less then impressive and NO WAY they would maintain supersonic velocity to anywhere near 3000 yards let along another 700.

If there were using special extreme BC bullets, I would think they would have mentioned that in the video.

 

[Fiftydriver]

I guess I missed what the actual target size was, does anyone know for sure? In the video does he not get two consecutive hits? If so I think that takes some of the luck out of it and shows they have dialed in and found the dope. Just my take on it, and I am pretty surprised at some responses to this. If I had made these shots and had it in video I would have posted it. And I would have not been impressed with anyone playing it down. I have seen first hand what two different LRKM's can do at past 2500 yards. Now 3600 is a heck of a lot farther, but 1 moa consistency at 2500~2700 yards is reality for the LRKM and Shawn's video at 2751 shows 3/4 moa hits. Some think as soon as you go subsonic the game is over. I am here to tell you first hand that is not true with all bullets and altitudes. So it is coming boys like it or not.

Just my take on all this.

Jeff

From what I have seen with the testing I have done with the 300 gr SMK and the prototype 265 gr AT RBBT, as long as velocity remains at or over supersonic velocity, sub 1 moa is easy out to the limits of this velocity range. As mentioned, I have tested the old, unsexy 300 SMK out to its limits, which are around 2900 yards or a bit more out of the AM with steller consistency and that projectile is totally predictable out to that range.

The 265 gr prototype was the same way out to 3010 yards but I was not able to test farther then this to see if it had any more legs which I am sure it did. From drop numbers at 1000, 1500 and 2000 yards, the BC came out to around .9 to .92 depending on the day shooting. Now, that is the number I needed to put into the program to get predicted flight trajectory to match up with actual bullet trajectory so I am not saying that was the SCIENTIFIC BC value of that bullet before someone gets pinched in the shorts.

Combining that with the 3550 fps and you get something pretty special. That was with Jamison cases, with the new Bertram brass, well over 3600 fps would have been practical with good brass life. To bad we do not have those bullets still, life goes on.

I did not test them at 2 miles for one reason, ran out of supply and Wildcat Bullets sold to a new owner.

I have yet to see a quality rifle not hold at or under 1 moa for grouping out to the limits of the combos supersonic velocity range. Bullet needs to be properly stabilized but if that happens, I have never seen a consistency problem that kept groups out of the 1 moa size.

That said, please realize that I am not saying that shooting conditions will not limit your ability to hold 1 moa groups at extreme range. When I was testing at 3010 yards, I did so on 6 different shooting sessions. Two of which I was able to put three shots in a row on my 20" round gong. On one occasion, I went 2 for 3 on steel. On three other occasions, because of wind, mirage or simply air conditions of my lack of shooting ability that day, I did not get a bullet on target. There are days, I am just not up to it!!!

Still, even on those bad days, missed were well under 2 moa in total size.

THis was +600 yards closer then the target in the video. Still, I would have to see this with my own eyes to believe it and even if it did, getting two shots BARELY on a 12'x12' target is hardly precision shooting in my opinion. I believe they were happy with the results because that's the best that could be hoped for with that combo. If they were maintaining supersonic velocity to that range, they should have been able to at least gets shots consistently on that size of a target with no problem. If they were using a bullet that was handling the transonic velocities well, again, it should not have been a problem to get bullets on that size of a target.

I suspect they were doing neither and as such, barely got a couple shots on the fringes just by chance. Would like to know how many shots were taken to get that snippet of video? That's the bad thing about the web, anything can be made to look like anything as there is very little accountability out there when you post something on the web other then your own principles. Not saying these guys are not being honest, totally possible they got two shots on that HUGE target but they make it sound like this was precision shooting and it was hardly that.

 

[extreme]

Watched that video 6 times and I believe Kirby is correct ..I only saw one hit and as stated on a 12 ft x12 ft target. Not much to brag about there...Kirby you need to put one of your units together and set up a 3 ft square target at that range and produce real world results..I believe you are 100 % correct on this one..