338 lapua v. 338-378 weatherby

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by ccsykes, Dec 8, 2004.

  1. ccsykes

    ccsykes Banned

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    I am looking at getting a tactical H S precision rifle in either 338 lapua or 338-378 weatherby. Which caliber is more accurate at ranges out to 800 + yards? Is either caliber traditionally more accurate than the other or am I just burning more powder with the weatherby caliber?
     
  2. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Christopher,

    Being a accuracy minded rifle builder, it is of my opinion that if two rifles are built to the smae match grade quality in two different chamberings such as the two you list, there will be no difference in accuracy potential.

    I believe it is teh rifle that makes the accuracy not the round.

    The 338 Lapua was designed for long range shooting in mind for military purposes. The 338-378 was designed simply to provide teh biggest baddest factory 338 available, basically Wby's reason for all of their rounds.

    That said, the 338-378 is a great round if you can handle the recoil and with a quality brake they are easy to control.

    While the 338 Lapua is certainly a large magnum round, it is not even in the same class as the 338-378 Wby. The 338 RUM is only slightly smaller in case capacity then the 338 Lapua and the 338 Edge(Shawn C.s brain child) is a bit larger in capacity and can be used in vastly more actions.

    Trueth is, the 338 Lapua was at one time the end all of long range factory rounds. Now it is near the top but there are cheaper and higher performance wounds out there.

    The 338-378 will do with 250 gr bullets what the 338 Lapua will do with 225 gr pills. Or it will give you around 150 to 200 fps more velocity with the same bullet weights.

    As far as accuracy, I built myself a 338 Kahn which is basically an improved 338-378 Wby with conventional 35 degree shoulder. This round is roughly 10 gr larger incapacity then the 338-378 parent case. Yesterday, I landed two 300 gr Wildcat ULDs within 3" at 1300 yards just to see how they would group at that range.

    In a quality built rifle, either round will flat smoke in performance and accuracy potential.

    At extreme range the velocity advantage of the 338-378 is not a huge deal to worry about. Just a little more of the same good old thing.

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     

  3. ccsykes

    ccsykes Banned

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    I was willing to spend somewhere around $2500 and am currious what anybody thinks about the HS Precision rifles. I am not set on this rifle. Are there any other rifles that I may want to look at?
     
  4. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    H-S Precision rifles are quality rifles but let me make one comment about them. They say their sub 30 caliber rifles will shoot 1/2 moa which is certainly very good. They do not say at what range they will hold this accuracy level but I assume its a 100 yard standard.

    For any round over 30 cal, they state that their rifles will shoot 1 moa.

    If I were looking for a small caliber varmint rifle then I would consider the H-S rifles as they are reasonably priced but for a larger caliber I would not even think about it.

    To spend $2500 on a rifle that will shoot 1 moa is a poor investment in my opinion. For $2500 this is what you want in accuracy out of this size of a caliber:

    Sorry, I was trying to post some target pics of the 338 Kahn but they won't come up on screen for some reason. Anyway, for this class of round my performance goals are sub 1/2 moa at 100 yards and 1/4 moa at 500 yards.

    PLease do not spend this amount of money on a rifle that is only expected to shoot 1 moa by its builder. Give them a call and find out what their larger caliber rifles generally shoot. If they are just being conservative with the 1 moa level of accuracy and most rifles print 1/2 moa groups then thats another story but find this out first.

    I do feel H-S is a quality company but do some homework before you order your new rifle.

    Just my opinion,

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  5. ccsykes

    ccsykes Banned

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    I had that same question so I talked to the guys at HS Precision and they told me that they generally get 1/2 MOA or less out of their 338 tacticals at 100 yds. Do you recomend any one rifle builder for that amount of money?
     
  6. dakor

    dakor Well-Known Member

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    Not to step on anyone's toes but why does everyone think they have to spend 2000 + dollars to have a rifle shoot well? If you just want a factory rifle that will shoot under 1/2 get a Remington Sendero in a 338 Ultra Mag you can pick them up new for around 800 bucks. Now if you want to go the custom route get yourself a Rem 700 Action. I would just buy a used rifle in a 300 ultra or something. Then order yourself a match grade barrel and a good stock. Then send the action and barrel to a guy like Kirby who knows what he is doing and you will have your 1/2 inch or less rifle. The cost will be half of what HS wants for there rifle. Plus with the money you just saved you could get a really nice scope.
     
  7. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    I would tend to agree with Dakor here on this one. While it is nice to go hog wild on a full custom rifle, it may not be the best investment for alot of people.

    First off, what do you want to do with this rifle?

    YOu asked about 800 yard shooting and beyond, to be honest, if your only going to be shooting at 800 to 1000 yards, you will be just as well served with a big 7mm or 30 cal compared to the monster 338s.

    That said, I am never one to discourage the use of very high powered rifles. Once youget used to it, 800 yards will be a chip shot with a quality rifle.

    As an example, I took my little fast twist 6mm-284 out this morning before the winds came up and did some range practice at ranges from 500 to 1100 yards. Of the 30 rounds I sent down range, only 6 missed their mark and of those only 1 missed by more then a foot because of a wind shift I was not paying attention to.

    This rifle is a factory stock, Win M70 Heavy Varminter which has been fitted with a 30" #7 contour fluted Lilja barrel with a 3 groove 1-8" twist. IT shoots the 107 gr Sierra Mks at 3450 fps into some pretty scary groups.

    I got the rifle used at a gun show in its original 243 chambering for $480. I payed Lilja $400 for the 30" fluted barrel and the labor would have amounted to around $550 total which included action accurizing, fitting-chambering barrel, bedding and trigger job.

    SO for all that your under $1500 for a total rifle ready to ship. To save even more you could go without the flutes which would cut another $115 off the total cost. For another $1100 you could damn near afford a 5.5-22 NXS nightforce to really top the rifle off well.

    Like Dakor said, do not think your bound to a complete new rifle for the sake of extreme accuracy. THis is simply not the case by any shape or form.

    Personally, if this is going to be an extreme range rifle chambered in one of these rounds, I would recommend a Rem 700 converted to single shot along with modifying the bolt stop to allow a longer bolt throat to spit out the long live rounds of these monsters loaded with true long range bullets.

    At ranges past 800 yards, a repeater is really not needed. Havign a supply of ammo right off your trigger hand will allow second shots just as quickly as a repeating rifle but with the advatages of the stiffer action and better bedding area if you choose a conventionally bedded design.

    If you want to go to the extreme, a Barrel Bedding V-Block rifle is the tops in extreme range performance but they do cost more depending on options. My Extreme Range Rifles will run in the $3200 to $3500 range while a smaller V-Block rifle like the 22-6mm AI I just sent out would run in the $2200 to $2400 range again depending on options.

    I am not saying you should use me because there are alot of quality smiths around the country, make some phone calls to different smiths and find out what they are charging and what level of accuracy performance they demand in their rifles. Often rifles out of smaller shops are even better quality and at a much lower price.

    Just something to think about before you jump in!

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Christopher, I have a 338 Lapua and love it. I don't see how the 338-378 gets 150-200fps more than the Lapua?
    The Wby gives you 3060 with a 250 grain, you could get that from the Lapua. Besides velocity is not the be-alll end-all. Its accuracy that counts!

    I wouldn't buy the HS precision rifle for that much.
    I paid $3000 for my full custom 338 lapua that my smith built the way I wanted it.

    PGW M18 SS Action
    McMillian Rem hunter stock
    Jewell Trigger
    Lilja #7 fluted 28" tube
    Tally bases and rings.

    I have no complaints!
     
  9. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    John M,

    I agree with most of your comments about accuracy being the end all as far a long range performance goes but I will also say that in 26" or longer barrels when they are both loaded with the 300 gr ULD bullets, the 338-378 Wby will easily top the Lapua by 150 fps.

    I have yet to see the 338 Lapua top 2900 fps with a 250 gr bullet in a 26" barrel without it being overloaded. Your 28" barrel will obviously produce more fps. The 338-378 Wby in an Accumark will hit 3075 fps with the 250s comfortably with the proper loading, in fact I have witnessed 3100 fps from the 338-378 Wby with decent case life. It was a hotter load then I would recommend but he was getting 5 firings per case so whatever I guess.

    In 30" or longer barrels, the velocity advantage with these 300 gr ULD will be 200 fps.

    With the lighter 250 gr class of bullets the Lapua does do pretty well in velocity but it is still a ways short of the 338-378.

    As an example, my 338 Kahn will drive the 250 gr bullets to just shy of 3400 fps out of its 34.5" barrel. Figuring I would loose about 20 fps per inch of barrel which is probably more then I really would, that would be around 130 fps from just barrel length compared to your 28" barrel which would result in a velocity of +3250 fps or right at that 200 fps advantage. The Kahn is slightly larger in case capacity then the standard 338-378 but they are similiar.

    Again though, you are correct that the rifle needs to be built to deliever teh accuracy needed for extreme range use or everything is wasted.

    Good Shooting!!!

    Kirby Allen
     
  10. alremkin

    alremkin Well-Known Member

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    What type of accuracy can I expect from a Weatherby Accumark
    338/378? I looked at one locally here in Vancouver, BC on special for roughly $1500 in American $ after converting, and thought econonically it's a good deal.

    I currently use a Sako 338 Win Mag my favorite load is a 250 gr Sierra with 69.5 gr of IMR 4350 which I chronographed @ 2780 fps @ 65 degrees F. When I'm able to concentrate the rifle will shoot MOA or better. I like it, but would also like to reach out a little farther. BC is a land on edge and shooting across valleys up to 5 or 6 hundred yards is often the only reasonable choice. I've taken an Elk and a Moose this way and never lost game.

    Ok so let me phrase my question this way: Do you think the Weatherby Accumark will equal or exceed the ACCURACY of what I stated for my Sako? I appreaciate your comments.
     
  11. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Kirby might know more on the 338/378 WBY, but my brother's pushes the 300 gr. SMK at 3050 fps in the 32" Pac-Nor with 118gr H870 at 4.1" OAL.

    He's loaded them up to 122gr at 3150 but brass didn't last real long...
     
  12. RBrowning

    RBrowning Well-Known Member

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    alremkin,
    A friend has a 338-378 Wby and I watched him shoot just under 1" at 100 yards with factory 250gr loads.
     
  13. alremkin

    alremkin Well-Known Member

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    Hm, that's good to hear, but it's already too late for me. I bought the rifle today, but here in Canada since I've only got a possesion of firearms permit, I have to leave the rifle at the store until I pass the acquisition test and receive the permit which will likely take several months. Fortunately in the meantime I still have my 222, 270, 308, 7mmRemMag, and 338 Win Mag.
     
  14. alremkin

    alremkin Well-Known Member

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    Interesting...I've been away from shooting for about 10 years and am getting back into it. From what I hear here, it sounds like a lot more people have realized what a good caliber the big 338's are. I don't know what a "Pac-Nor" is, but will probably eventually replace the stock 26" barrel with a 30" Lilja one or two contours heavier than the stock barrel. I don't know what a "SMK" is either, although I've heard Sierra has a 300gr Matchking with a verry high BC. What worries me about that bullet is that it might blow up on an Elk or Moose.

    Years ago I picked up 8 lbs of H870 figuring someday I'd get a 338/378. Also I've a hundred of the old style Barnes 300 gr round nose for up close against a Grizzly. Which I wouldn't want to load any faster than 2700fps for that purpose. Although, if I was hunting Grizzly specifically I want to use something more like a 475/416...ah another rifle to dream about...