338 cal 265grn wildcat bullet test

[Supermag]

I'm no expert but wouldn't a projectile with a rearward center of gravity fly with the tip tending to pointed slightly upward? The spin should keep it from tumbling and at the point when the bullet peaks the weighted end would be pushed slightly farther than the lighter end, this would give the bullet a more driving effect, and a position that was more in line with the path of flight (instead of nose up) on the downward path.

This is probably not correct but if it is, then this may be the problem Kirby is seeing with the changing BC at longer ranges. The BC is actually changing because the bullet is no longer nose up to the flight path, it is actually in line with the path.

Do any of the experts see anything of value in my wandering train of thought.

 

[goodgrouper]

Goodgrouper,
I only have several left, i am going to test them very soon for expansion.

Dave

10-4 on that. I'll be anxiously awaiting your report. Thanks.

 

[edge]

Edge,

What data do you have to support your comments that all bullets fired into fluid will land tail first?

SNIP

Please re-read what I wrote. I was only describing FMJ bullets. Non- expanding.
Clearly expanding bullets prevent tumbling due to several mechanisms, shoulder stabilization, mass shifting, and becoming a cylinder with weight forward properties.

Data on FMJ bullets has been described in many places, here is one:

http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Fackler/wrong.html

and some included sketches:

http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Fackler/figure3.gif

http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Fackler/figure6.gif

If I gave the impression that all bullets tumble I apologise, and that was never my intent. I think that were you to drop a bullet nose down from a reasonable distance that it would hit the ground in a general base down manner, this overturning moment is one reason for the need for twist.

edge.

 

[Fiftydriver]

I would say that your FMJ comments again have more to do with retained bullet length after impact then anything else.

I do not shoot solids or FMJ at long range for paper punching, varmint hunting or big game hunting so I have no experience there but I have read about african big bore rifles using far faster twist then needed to keep solid bullets on point as they penetrate.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[jwp475]

Flat point solids are shoulder stabilized after impact and stay on track when penetrating..... Round nose solids will tumble at some point usally after penetrating a long way... Every round nose soild that I have fired or seen fired into wet news print tumbled,never have I seen a flat point solid tumble in game or wet news print.............I do not have any experience with pointed solids and my above comments do not include pointed solids.....

 

[goodgrouper]

I may be 100% off, but I can often find problems at night.
If you can shoot the 300SMK and the 265 WC in the dark, either with a friend or better yet using a camera. You know that the SMK's are accurate, so use that as a baseline, and if the muzzle flash is noticeably exaggerated with the 265's, then try a different load.

This may not work for you, but I have found that when the muzzle flash is much more than my baseline loads that I might as well move to something different.

edge.

I was out shooting last night and it was particularly dark outside and I noticed something like this. I was shooting a 300 ultra mag with RL25 with 180 grain bullets and 200 grain bullets. With similiar charge weights, the 180 grain bullets dang near blinded me with muzzle flash. It was super bright, and went far enought out to the sides to blind my non-shooting eye as well. Then the 200 grain bullets hardly had a spark behind them. Shows pretty well in my mind that the 180 grain bullets were either too light, or the powder was too slow burning or both. In other words, the expansion ratio was much too low with the 180's.

 

[edge]

goodgrouper, thanks for the feedback.
With my limited shooting, it has been reliable. I'm sure that you can find loads that are reliable that show a lot of flash, but I would think that there should not be a lot of powder burning after the bullet leaves the muzzle.....at least not more than with your best loads.

edge.

 

[goodgrouper]

BD408,

Any reports on your bullet testing yet?

 

[Down Under Hunter]

Howdy all,

Just thought I 'd ask a real dumb question and get your thoughts on something.

Do you guys still feel that Richards Al bullet is still in a prototype stage ? I am having Defensive edge build a 338 edge that I hoped with 1:10 will shoot the 265 gr wildcat, but I am not sure if I should hold off until a later date to make the plunge on the AL tipped bullets when there are more guys having shot them in the field ?? Should I just for the time being stick with the 300 smk ? I have spoken to richard and he has been extremely helpful, but I don't know if I should get Shawn to test them through my gun ? What are everyones thoughts ?? I just love the sound of them !!!

Thanks again

 

[Fiftydriver]

Down Under Hunter,

I have shot these quite a bit in my 338 AX which is in a similiar class of performance as the edge. What I am getting in my 27" barrel is what you would get in a 30" barrel pretty comfortably. I can push them to 3000 fps if I want to and pressures are not that terribly high so you would be able to see pretty much the same in the Edge with a 30" pipe.

Considering the 300 gr SMK will get you around 2850 fps in the Edge with the same length barrel on average you can see the velocity boost the 265s would offer.

Not to mention it appears that they are producing BCs in the .9 to .93 range depending on the velocity you drive them to. Realize these numbers are determined by what I need to use in my ballistic program to get drop chart to match actual bullet flight.

I have a 1-10 twist in my rifle and out to 800 yards at least has proven very consistant with these bullets so far. I would say this is absolutely minimum twist though for these bullets which are 1.920" in length, a full 0.200" longer then the SMK.

I just talked with Richard last night and he is now working on a heavy jacketed 250 gr AT RBBT which in my opinion may be the very best choice for the class if rifle you are having built which would include the Edge, Lapua, RUM, 338-378 and my 338 AX.

Richard tells me that the first few he has made turned out extremely well and they measure about 50 thou longer then the 300 gr SMK. I would be surpised if they did not produce a BC in the low 0.800 range and with the velocity potential they add compared to the 300 gr SMK I think they would be the ultimate bullet for this class of chambering.

As of right not the bullets are all still prototype status but that will not be for long. Richard is getting all the bugs worked out very nicely and we will have some in field test reports coming by the end of this weekend hopefully to study performance on big game. That is kind of the last bit Richard is waiting for to make a final decision on jacket thickness.

To simply answer your question, I would stick with the standard 1-10 twist. It should handle the 265 gr AT RBBT and it will certainly handle the new 250 gr AT RBBT that should be available soon.

It will not handle the 300 gr AT RBBT but in my opinion, with the length of that bullet which is dramatically longer then the 300 gr SMK, its best suited to the largest of 338 magnums.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[davewilson]

i shoot an Edge and last year shot 300's out of it exclusively with very good accuracy results. i've always been a little apprehensive about terminal performance because i'm going after Mr. eastern whitetail, not Mr western Elk. that is unless Wyoming will give me an elk tag next year, but that's a different story. so i started shooting the 250SMK a while ago because i've heard from several back here that have 20-30+ years of long range hunting experience, that out to 1k, the 250's will work better at killing our medium sized whitetails. with the extra speed that brings more RPM's and less hang time, i'm definitely going with the 250's this year. at 1k i have around 20" less drop than the 300's. my point to all of this is i agree with Kirby( we agree on everything eh Kirby?) in that a 250 gr bullet is probably the best fit for the 90-110 gr of powder cartridges.i know the 300 is an awesome killing pill for elk, but most are not always shooting at elk. to be honest, i think the 250 would probably kill elk just as efficiently as the 300's

as a 338 shooter it's just nice to have more options. the Wildcat Al tipped bullets are very exciting, the Bergers by the end of the year or whenever and of course the old tried and true SMK's. i just love shooting the 338 caliber. for long range big game hunting, it's just slicker than snot on a door knob!

 

[Black Diamond 408]

Goodgrouper,

No i havent had a chance to get out due to the bad weather we have been having. I hope to very soon. I have several new rifles to test and i want to put several of the 265's through them.

Dave

 

[royinidaho]

Hey Davewilson

I'm pretty much spot on with what you posted above. I'm shooting 300 SMKs in a RUM mostly because it won't shoot 225s or 250s for squat. 101gr of US869 is just the ticket for zero ES and SDs. Will group it in the next couple of days. It pushes the 300 @ 27xx with tons of energy down range. Its in a light carry rifle with and 800 yd max limit due to the mil dots and a weird turret calibration that I can't figure out.

I'm figuring on a high shoulder or shoulder knuckle shot and see how it busts bones. I don't want mr elk to move an inch after being hit, should I be lucky enough to get AND make the shot.

I emailed Richard this morning and asked if he would send some of the 26 AL RBBTs. I hope they aren't an arm and a leg as I have only one of each left.

 

[Down Under Hunter]

Down Under Hunter,

I have shot these quite a bit in my 338 AX which is in a similiar class of performance as the edge. What I am getting in my 27" barrel is what you would get in a 30" barrel pretty comfortably. I can push them to 3000 fps if I want to and pressures are not that terribly high so you would be able to see pretty much the same in the Edge with a 30" pipe.

Considering the 300 gr SMK will get you around 2850 fps in the Edge with the same length barrel on average you can see the velocity boost the 265s would offer.

Not to mention it appears that they are producing BCs in the .9 to .93 range depending on the velocity you drive them to. Realize these numbers are determined by what I need to use in my ballistic program to get drop chart to match actual bullet flight.

I have a 1-10 twist in my rifle and out to 800 yards at least has proven very consistant with these bullets so far. I would say this is absolutely minimum twist though for these bullets which are 1.920" in length, a full 0.200" longer then the SMK.

I just talked with Richard last night and he is now working on a heavy jacketed 250 gr AT RBBT which in my opinion may be the very best choice for the class if rifle you are having built which would include the Edge, Lapua, RUM, 338-378 and my 338 AX.

Richard tells me that the first few he has made turned out extremely well and they measure about 50 thou longer then the 300 gr SMK. I would be surpised if they did not produce a BC in the low 0.800 range and with the velocity potential they add compared to the 300 gr SMK I think they would be the ultimate bullet for this class of chambering.

As of right not the bullets are all still prototype status but that will not be for long. Richard is getting all the bugs worked out very nicely and we will have some in field test reports coming by the end of this weekend hopefully to study performance on big game. That is kind of the last bit Richard is waiting for to make a final decision on jacket thickness.

To simply answer your question, I would stick with the standard 1-10 twist. It should handle the 265 gr AT RBBT and it will certainly handle the new 250 gr AT RBBT that should be available soon.

It will not handle the 300 gr AT RBBT but in my opinion, with the length of that bullet which is dramatically longer then the 300 gr SMK, its best suited to the largest of 338 magnums.

Kirby Allen(50)

Fifty,

Thanks again for your thoughts ! I have been reading all your great reports on Richards projectiles and I too see all the benefits of this new missle. I like the sound of 3000 fps from the edge ! I will be shooting these into big Sambar stags that weigh around 600 lbs. From my experience with both , I have found them alot more demanding to put down than any bull I have killed. Not sure why, but they sure can suck the lead up with well placed shots.

Is there any one out there who has an edge that has tested them in their gun ?? I belive Shawn has pending plans to do so shortly. I cant wait to see you boys out west this fall with them. I'm expecting to be in awe !!! Boom...whoooosh........whop !!!

Good hunting guys !