338 Allen Xpress, RL33 load development

[TXAoudadKlr]

Do you think using this powder a 300Ax with a 27" barrel will be able to push a 230gr hybrid to 3200-3250fps?

 

[Fiftydriver]

Do you think using this powder a 300Ax with a 27" barrel will be able to push a 230gr hybrid to 3200-3250fps?

It will get close to that with Retumbo. I would think 3250 would be pretty easy with RL33. Have not tested it yet but its on the TO DO list. This time of year just not much time for my personal TO DO list. Customer TO DO list is much more important.

We will be doing a RL33 work up this weekend for my brothers 7.82 Warbird which is extremely similar to my 300 AX so that will tell me a lot about what my 300 AX will do with that powder. He wants to use 180 gr bullets though because of the Sakos relatively slow rifling twist.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

.....
We will be doing a RL33 work up this weekend for my brothers 7.82 Warbird which is extremely similar to my 300...,,,He wants to use 180 gr bullets though because of the Sakos relatively slow rifling twist.

UGH! That is a killer Kirby. I believe that cartridge would really shine with a heavy weight.... that's a pretty nasty handicap. I'm still looking forward to your results though, keep up the good work.



t

 

[Fiftydriver]

Old Lazzeroni got hung up on velocity more then anything but to him, 600 yards is very long range so he can get away with it. His chamberings would be much better served with faster twist barrels shooting the heavy bullets.

Comparing the two, the 7.82 Warbird and my 300 AX, they are for the most part identical other then brass quality and price. The 300 AX has the advantage there hands down in every way, price, quality and strength.

There have been many discussions about Lazzeroni brass and pretty much the only one out there saying its GREAT brass is John. Anyone that has used it knows its the weak link in the system. Older brass was TERRIBLE. Even dangerous if you tried to load it to his advertised velocity levels with his own listed loads. Newer brass is better but still not great.

For example, he lists his Warbird at 3550 fps with a 180 gr bullet using H-1000. Well, in my brothers rifle, using Lazzeroni load data, with the old brass he would decap his primers on each shot at 3400 fps. A full 150 fps off RECOMMENDED and ADVERTISED velocity levels.

With the newer brass, primer pockets start to let loose at 3500 fps so that's the most my brother has been able to get out of his rifle with the 180s. He is hoping to at least be able to FINALLY get advertised velocities and maybe slightly more. I told him I am not to confident that will happen and if he does not get it, we may rebarrel his rifle to my 300 AX for the dramatically better brass at lower cost.

Will let you guys know what we find out with the Warbird and RL33.

 

[IdahoCTD]

He's your brother and he hasn't pinched you for some free gunsmithing? He's nicer than my friends and family. There is no call for dealing with crappy brass. That is the down side to trying to push things with .378 Weatherby based wildcats. At 3+ bucks a pop and maybe 3 warm reloads it gets old quick.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

Kirby,

I have read a lot of disappointing reports on the large mag brass. I've always been curious as to why it seems to be a LOT weaker than the short mag brass, doesn't make sense to me. Maybe i'm the lucky one & ended up with good short mag brass? Almost everything I read says the same, short mag=good: large mag=bad.... what would be different?

If I recall correctly, Hornady is making the new brass. That should be a HUGE step forward in quality. I have both & can say, I like the new brass better. I'm pushing the Patriot harder than I probably should & am on 4+ reloads on my test cases, I can live with that.


t

 

[Fiftydriver]

He's your brother and he hasn't pinched you for some free gunsmithing? He's nicer than my friends and family. There is no call for dealing with crappy brass. That is the down side to trying to push things with .378 Weatherby based wildcats. At 3+ bucks a pop and maybe 3 warm reloads it gets old quick.

What I did not mention is that we are also fine tuning the drop chart on his new APS XHS 338 Allen Magnum as well this weekend.........

On the Wby brass, that's why my LITTLE Allen Xpress wildcats based on the Lapua case can match or even exceed the same caliber round on the big Wby case and do so with around 10 grains less powder. Strong case design is a wonderful thing.

Last I checked, Wby brand 378 Wby brass was +$4 each. Norma brand 378 Wby brass was $5 each!!! Now 338 Lapua brass IS NOT cheap but at around $2.75 each, its a steal considering how strong it is. Warbird brass is running $3.75 each.....

 

[Fiftydriver]

Kirby,

I have read a lot of disappointing reports on the large mag brass. I've always been curious as to why it seems to be a LOT weaker than the short mag brass, doesn't make sense to me. Maybe i'm the lucky one & ended up with good short mag brass? Almost everything I read says the same, short mag=good: large mag=bad.... what would be different?

If I recall correctly, Hornady is making the new brass. That should be a HUGE step forward in quality. I have both & can say, I like the new brass better. I'm pushing the Patriot harder than I probably should & am on 4+ reloads on my test cases, I can live with that.


t

I used to shoot a 7.21 Tomahawk and the brass I used in that chambering was the worst brass I had ever seen. I was having serious case head separation issues so finally decided to cross section one of the virgin cases. Just ahead of the solid case head, the case wall thickness was 20 thou thinner on one side then the other and you guessed it, that's the side that let loose every time.

E-mailed Lazzeroni to talk about the problem and see if I could get some replacement brass. Got a reply back from John himself and he said that I must have been mistaken as his brass was the best in the world and that there was a problem with the rifle.

I replied that my measurements were taken off his VIRGIN brass so it had nothing to do with the rifle. He replied that I was simply unexperienced and that I did not know how to properly measure brass and that I was obviously doing something wrong to come up with these claims.

I then offered to send him the cross sectioned brass so he could put his own calipers on the case walls and see for himself.

The reply I got back after that was I was wrong, his brass was the most highly tested, best quality, strongest brass on the market to date.........

Asked if there was any way to get a new lot of brass and he replied that his brass was made in one huge lot and that there would be no more Tomahawk brass made until this was sold out.......

Sent him back a final e-mail saying, "So your saying ALL your Tomahawk brass is worthless?" Did not get a reply after that.....

Now this was many years ago, hell, probably well over 10 years ago. I have no idea what the Tomahawk brass is like now. The reviews lately have been very good for the Lazzeroni short mag brass but I know that when I worked with it, it was very expensive and worthless. Worse then that was how John treated a customer. At that time, I was just a 30 year old kid that loved guns and high performance so I kind of just took it. Today I would have handled the situation a bit differently with the knowledge and experience I have gained since that time. Live and learn I guess.

Hope your Lazz short mag brass keeps performing for you. For me, there are MUCH better choices out there. The WSM pretty much made the Lazz short mags obsolete as they work better in standard magnum bolt faced short action receivers, brass is very good and costs DRAMATICALLY less.

 

[IdahoCTD]

The best quality brass ends up being cheaper, due to longer life, no matter what it cost. In the .338 Lapua based stuff it's a bonus that it is cheaper too.

Have you messed with the .300/.338 Norma cases? I'm curious on the durability. I've heard it's really good.

 

[Fiftydriver]

The best quality brass ends up being cheaper, due to longer life, no matter what it cost. In the .338 Lapua based stuff it's a bonus that it is cheaper too.

Have you messed with the .300/.338 Norma cases? I'm curious on the durability. I've heard it's really good.

I have not. I know the Norma brand 338 Lapua brass is much softer then the Lapua brand brass which is not a terrible thing. It helped me develop safe loads in all of my Lapua based wildcats as it would show me when to STOP with increasing the chamber pressures. The Lapua brass would just take the pressure and smile!!!

I have heard good reports about the 300 and 338 Norma mag cases being much harder in the case head just as you have but have not played with any yet.

 

[LazzInc]

Kirby ,,,,,,,

you are still spreading this BS about LAZZERONI brass ? ,,,,,,,

do you really think you have to do this to try and sell your own rifles, by putting down another company's product ?,,,,,,,

headspace was probably the issue on the Lazz Tomahawk rifle you made ,,,, that is why the brass was stretching ahead of the base ,,,,,

I have sold over 500,000 brass cases and loaded Lazzeroni rounds since Lazzeroni Arms company was formed in 1995 ,,,, and if things were as you say they are, I would have been out of business long ago ,,,,,

 

[Fiftydriver]

Kirby ,,,,,,,

you are still spreading this BS about LAZZERONI brass ? ,,,,,,,

do you really think you have to do this to try and sell your own rifles, by putting down another company's product ?,,,,,,,

headspace was probably the issue on the Lazz Tomahawk rifle you made ,,,, that is why the brass was stretching ahead of the base ,,,,,

I have sold over 500,000 brass cases and loaded Lazzeroni rounds since Lazzeroni Arms company was formed in 1995 ,,,, and if things were as you say they are, I would have been out of business long ago ,,,,,

Please explain to me how headspace on the rifle would cause the VIRGIN brass to be 20 thou thinner on one side then the other.......

If you read my post, I also stated that new brass may be better, its been over 10 years since you called me an uneducated fool that had no idea how to measure brass and simply did not have the experience to know what I was looking at. Your words, not mine.

I was just commenting on a statement made by another poster, I did not bring it up.

I also stated FACTS about your Warbird brass, this is not opinion. We used YOUR load data and it blew out primer pockets on the first firing with your original Warbird brass. In fact we had to reduce loads to 3400 fps with the 180 gr bullets you recommend to get reusable brass. That's the same pretty much as a 300 RUM in same length barrel.

I also stated that newer Warbird brass was better but we could still not get the advertised velocity listed using your load data but we could at least get up to 3500 fps with a 180 gr, still not the 3550 fps advertised.

This problem came up LONG before I was building rifles and your insulting response also came well before I was building anything. This is not my opinion. IF anyone wants to see the raving reviews of Lazzeroni Warbird brass, please go to www.midwayusa.com and look up the 7.82 Warbird reloading brass. Read the reviews of that brass. I think it barely gets over 2 out of 5 stars and the reviews speak for themselves.

Again, my problem with the tomahawk brass was with VIRGIN brass, not brass that had been fired even once in my rifle so your excuse holds no water and never has. I will again be fair and say that recent reviews of your Tomahawk brass have been quite good. Seems you got things straightened out with that problem which is good. Still your response to a customer that had legit problems with your brass was pitiful at best.

IT is for that reason that I have no desire to give you or your products another chance. There are better systems out there and better brass for less money, again, that's a fact.

If you would like to DEBATE this AGAIN, no problem at all, lets go again for about the 10th time!! Facts still support me. In fact I still have that worthless brass sitting on my self and again, I am pretty sure a rifles headspace will not effect the case wall thickness consistency on VIRGIN BRASS.

Another point where you are wrong, I did not build that rifle, again, this problem was long before I had built any rifles. This was a Savage M16LZ. I will admit, it shot well but brass did not last more then a couple firings. I think it was the end of 2001 or beginning of 2002 that I got the rifle just to give it a try, was far more trouble then it was worth and your response was pathetic at best to a customer that was asking for help.

From what I have heard over the years, the replies I got from you were relatively common if anyone ever questioned you about your products. So, if you want to stir this up more, lets go. I can dig out my notes again and post all the factual information for everyone to see and decide for themselves. I could probably even dig up those old e-mail replies directly from you if you want that out there for everyone to see.

Your call, if you want to, lets start another post so you do not hi jack my thread on my 338 AX.

 

[Fiftydriver]

I never said you did not solve the problem, I said your original brass was crap and your customer service was even worse. Maybe you corrected your brass and learned how to help customers better, do not know but I can tell you I know many of your former customers that have the same opinion of you and your products so its not me alone making these claims.

So lets see, you sell brass for 10 of your chamberings and you have sold 500,000 pieces of brass in 19 years of being in business.... That comes out to around 26,000 per year. I would have thought you would have sold MUCH more then that considering you sell loose brass to several distributors around the country and also sell loaded ammo. Espeically back in the early 2000's when the Lazzeroni rifles and rounds were all the rage. You could not pick up a shooting rag that did not have an extensive article about one of your chamberings. Don't know how many article we read about your Warbird shooting the special 130 gr bullets at 4000 fps. This is one reason that my brother bought the Sako in the Warbird and also why I got the Savage in 7.21 Tomahawk. Sadly both were a serious pain in the rear from the start. My brother stuck with his long enough to get your Gen 2 brass which made it better, I did not want to bother after getting the reply I did from you when I asked to get some replacement brass for the Tomahawk.

Back to my point, I would have suspected you would have sold well over a million rounds of brass and ammo by this time. Especially with how you talk about the volume of rifles, brass and ammo you sell all the time.

Last year I formed and sold 13,000 brass to customers and this year we have shipped 12,000. Point is my shop is a speck compared to what you claim your business puts out so I would have thought you would sell MUCH more ammo and brass then that, especially since your selling brass and loaded ammo for 10 different chamberings to retail stores all over the country.

Also, your really not my competition. If you would like to compare my products with yours for quality, function, range and performance and oh ya, COST, I am fully up for that. I do not see you as competition in any way for the products I produce and manufacture. Your business and products RARELY come up in conversation when customers hire me to build them custom, precision, long range rifles. In fact I could count the times on one hand that customers asked me build custom rifles in your chamberings over the 11 years I have been in business.

 

[LazzInc]

Kirby ,,,,,,

the very first batch of Warbird brass I received and sold, I also used to work up PROOF loads (85,000 PSI) for Sako when they were building the TRG-S rifles, in the Warbird caliber ,,,,,,

even at proof pressure the primers did not blow out on firing ,,,,,, and I still shoot that original batch of Warbird brass in my own rifle ,,,, still working perfect after at least 10 firings thru each piece, with about 15% thrown out after 10 firings ,,,,

I have to shake my head at your comments today, just like I did back then ,,,,,

if you are blowing primer pockets out of ANY brand brass, your loads are too hot ,,,,,,

let me give you an example ,,,,,,

A new handloader will get ahold of the big Lazz Warbird gun ,,,, read over the loading data quick, substitute CCI primers for the federal 215s, pour in the max amount of IMR-7828, (instead of the starting load) substitute Barnes bullets for the Nosler Partitions, or Sierras as listed in the manual, seat the bullet any old depth as long as it will fit into the rifle, NO brass preparation or case trimming prior to loading ,,,, and BOOM, velocity is way below advertised and he has to beat the bolt open with his hand or mallet to get the brass out of the chamber ,,,,,,,

then he thinks ,,, well, isn't this BS, low velocity and crap brass ,,,,,,,,

then he will run his mouth all over to anyone he can about how poor Lazzeroni products are ,,,,,

sound like anyone you know ??

the brass we sell today is made by Steve Hornady ,,, and it is even better than the original, but still won't stand up to an inexperienced and uneducated handloader ,,,,,,,,

BTW ,,,,, shot this deer below last January at 810 yards with a hold-over mil-dot scope ((no dials)) ,,,,,