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.308 warbird questions.
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<blockquote data-quote="Fiftydriver" data-source="post: 135975" data-attributes="member: 10"><p>I have been watching this post for a while now and am not surpised by the responses to the Warbird. Its a love hate thing with the Lazzeroni rounds. Mainly a hate thing. </p><p></p><p>That said, I would agree that there has been alot of hype spread by Lazzeroni himself about his rounds performance but mainly in the beginning. The lack of quality brass in the beginning and the lack of powders available to make these rounds perform as advertised left a bad taste in alot of shooters mouths.</p><p></p><p>Personal dealings with Lazzeroni himself with a couple projects made me swear off the man and his products. His customer service leaves alot to be designed to say the least.</p><p></p><p>All that said, if you look at the round and rifle itsself, the 7.82 Warbird in the Sako TRG-S, on performance merits alone comparing factory rounds, it is on the very top of the pile for 30 cal magnums.</p><p></p><p>In 26" barrels, it will match the 30-378 simply because there is no way to burn 120 gr of powder in a 26" pipe out of the big Wby.</p><p></p><p>The design of the round is also go, shorter then a true full length magnum which helps it fit into conventional length magnum receivers.</p><p></p><p>In the beginning 3500 fps was a pipe dream with the 7.82. I was with Klallen when he did all of his load testing for his Sako Warbird and he was very frustrated with the inability to reach advertised 3500 fps levels without popping primer pockets in the very spendy brass. </p><p></p><p>He loaded to just above 3400 fps with the 180 gr pills and left it there. With those numbers, its still the second ranking 30 cal magnum offered in a factory chambering and not much off the 30-378.</p><p></p><p>Recently, it seems the brass quality or at least strength has been beefied up and with the release of Retumbo, I again was with Klallen when he retested and redeveloped his Warbird loads. He started with the 200 gr Accubonds and reached 3300 fps pretty comfortably with top loads. </p><p></p><p>He also redeveloped loads for the 180 gr Accubond which reached 3500 fps pretty easily. He stopped right at the point where his velocity averages broke 3500 fps and left it there. IF I remember correctly, the last group he shot on paper at 100 yards was less then 3/8" ctc.</p><p></p><p>So while I will admit no love for the man himself and that in the early stages, there was alot more hype then performance from his rounds, now adays, with the powders we have available to us, at least with the 30 cal version, his numbers are practical with top end loads.</p><p></p><p>As far as the Sako TRG-S rifle. As a rifle builder, the design has some flaws. Mainly in the recoil lug design. Keep the receiver screws tight at all times and generally they are very good quality moderate range rifles. </p><p></p><p>In watching and shooting Klallens Warbird, I would not feel uncomfortable taking 1/2 mile shots at big game.</p><p></p><p>Weither you like the round, the man or the rifles, you can not complain about a 105 to 110 gr powder charge under a 180 to 220 gr bullet in 30 cal. In a quality rifle, there is nothing that combination will not do at any practical range you want to shoot at.</p><p></p><p>I feel the biggest problem with the Lazzeroni rounds was poor brass quality early on(some improvements have been made) but more so then that Lazzeroni himself burning to many bridges with to many claims of "best ______ in the world" and an attitude toward customers that is less then steller from my personal appearance.</p><p></p><p>My opinion, if you like the round and want to pay for the brass, by all means go for it. Loaded to same chamber pressures in same barrel lengths, no 300 RUM will match it. There is not a huge advantage for the Warbird but generally 75 to 100 fps in most cases.</p><p></p><p>The problem is that most have never seen what a rifle built from the ground up designed for long range hunting could do with the Warbird. I do not know of a single custom rifle set up specifically for LR hunting in this caliber. I am sure they are out there but not many. That may change someday.</p><p></p><p>So while there was lot of hype with these rounds, when use properly for our purposes, there is no way to say it is still not on the top of the performance pile in 30 cal magnums.</p><p></p><p>With my 300 AX, my goal is to match the performance of this round and the 30-378 but in a shorter package with the use of higher pressures.</p><p></p><p>If you want the Sako, by all means get it, if its a shooter, you certainly will not be unhappy with the performance of the Warbird as long as you handload. Shooting factory ammo is simply not smart with its $90 per 20 price tag!!!</p><p></p><p>Just my opinion, the round was getting a bit of a hammering and it really should not be picked on so. The man that designed it is kind of a pain in my opinion, but it is a good design.</p><p></p><p>Another 2 cents to throw in the kitty!!</p><p></p><p>Kirby Allen(50)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fiftydriver, post: 135975, member: 10"] I have been watching this post for a while now and am not surpised by the responses to the Warbird. Its a love hate thing with the Lazzeroni rounds. Mainly a hate thing. That said, I would agree that there has been alot of hype spread by Lazzeroni himself about his rounds performance but mainly in the beginning. The lack of quality brass in the beginning and the lack of powders available to make these rounds perform as advertised left a bad taste in alot of shooters mouths. Personal dealings with Lazzeroni himself with a couple projects made me swear off the man and his products. His customer service leaves alot to be designed to say the least. All that said, if you look at the round and rifle itsself, the 7.82 Warbird in the Sako TRG-S, on performance merits alone comparing factory rounds, it is on the very top of the pile for 30 cal magnums. In 26" barrels, it will match the 30-378 simply because there is no way to burn 120 gr of powder in a 26" pipe out of the big Wby. The design of the round is also go, shorter then a true full length magnum which helps it fit into conventional length magnum receivers. In the beginning 3500 fps was a pipe dream with the 7.82. I was with Klallen when he did all of his load testing for his Sako Warbird and he was very frustrated with the inability to reach advertised 3500 fps levels without popping primer pockets in the very spendy brass. He loaded to just above 3400 fps with the 180 gr pills and left it there. With those numbers, its still the second ranking 30 cal magnum offered in a factory chambering and not much off the 30-378. Recently, it seems the brass quality or at least strength has been beefied up and with the release of Retumbo, I again was with Klallen when he retested and redeveloped his Warbird loads. He started with the 200 gr Accubonds and reached 3300 fps pretty comfortably with top loads. He also redeveloped loads for the 180 gr Accubond which reached 3500 fps pretty easily. He stopped right at the point where his velocity averages broke 3500 fps and left it there. IF I remember correctly, the last group he shot on paper at 100 yards was less then 3/8" ctc. So while I will admit no love for the man himself and that in the early stages, there was alot more hype then performance from his rounds, now adays, with the powders we have available to us, at least with the 30 cal version, his numbers are practical with top end loads. As far as the Sako TRG-S rifle. As a rifle builder, the design has some flaws. Mainly in the recoil lug design. Keep the receiver screws tight at all times and generally they are very good quality moderate range rifles. In watching and shooting Klallens Warbird, I would not feel uncomfortable taking 1/2 mile shots at big game. Weither you like the round, the man or the rifles, you can not complain about a 105 to 110 gr powder charge under a 180 to 220 gr bullet in 30 cal. In a quality rifle, there is nothing that combination will not do at any practical range you want to shoot at. I feel the biggest problem with the Lazzeroni rounds was poor brass quality early on(some improvements have been made) but more so then that Lazzeroni himself burning to many bridges with to many claims of "best ______ in the world" and an attitude toward customers that is less then steller from my personal appearance. My opinion, if you like the round and want to pay for the brass, by all means go for it. Loaded to same chamber pressures in same barrel lengths, no 300 RUM will match it. There is not a huge advantage for the Warbird but generally 75 to 100 fps in most cases. The problem is that most have never seen what a rifle built from the ground up designed for long range hunting could do with the Warbird. I do not know of a single custom rifle set up specifically for LR hunting in this caliber. I am sure they are out there but not many. That may change someday. So while there was lot of hype with these rounds, when use properly for our purposes, there is no way to say it is still not on the top of the performance pile in 30 cal magnums. With my 300 AX, my goal is to match the performance of this round and the 30-378 but in a shorter package with the use of higher pressures. If you want the Sako, by all means get it, if its a shooter, you certainly will not be unhappy with the performance of the Warbird as long as you handload. Shooting factory ammo is simply not smart with its $90 per 20 price tag!!! Just my opinion, the round was getting a bit of a hammering and it really should not be picked on so. The man that designed it is kind of a pain in my opinion, but it is a good design. Another 2 cents to throw in the kitty!! Kirby Allen(50) [/QUOTE]
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