300gn Scenar at 2700 yards

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by Topshot, May 29, 2010.

  1. Topshot

    Topshot Well-Known Member

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    Over on "the hide", a shooter tried to reproduce the 2700 yard shot that is now famous with a .338 Lapua.
    338LM Mythbusting :) - Sniper's Hide Forums


    Interesting story but what caught my interest was the fact that the 300gn scenar stayed stable out that far and also the terminal performance of the bullet on impact with the ground.

    The 300gr Scenar seem to expand at a velocity that must have been very low.
    If these bullets expand at such a low velocity then they would be excellent for hunting.

    Has anyone tried the 300gn Scenar bullet for hunting?


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  2. liltank

    liltank Well-Known Member

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    That was a great read. It was nice to see someone go out and try it instead of armchair quarterbacking. I myself, to this day believe that it can be done. This trial by the shooter proved that under ideal condition that a shot like this can be achieved. That is the one part of the article that makes this a plausable scenario.

    Thanks,
    Tank
     

  3. Oliveralan

    Oliveralan Well-Known Member

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    Great read and very impressive results.

    So has anyone tried the 300 grain scenar? It does look to have expanded, at 2707yards!
     
  4. jmden

    jmden Well-Known Member

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    Somewhere there's an old goodgrouper post where he shot them into wet newspaper or phonebooks and, as I recall, they did not expand, but mostly just got bent at an angle and didn't go in a straight path through the medium. Have to find it yourself.

    With the advent of the 300g Bergers, if they work terminally, which is likely, they'll leave the scenars and SMK's behind balistically.
     
  5. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    I believe the British shooter was using the 250 Senar so this is totally irrelivant from what I can tell.

    Even from his own words, just one click in windage adjustment moved point of impact from 2 feet on one side of the target to clear to the other side. That does not sounds like extreme consistancy to me, more like 2-3 moa type consistancy or that the bullet is loosing stability and consistancy.

    he also admits that it took him 5 shots to even get a shot on steel but did not say how many shots after that he took trying to tap steel a second time and you know damn well he did not stop with one hit. There is not a human alive, especially a long range shooting nut that would slap steel at 2700 yards and then stop shooting......

    As far as the Senar expanding well at this range, I call BS here again. This bullet has been tested many times on game and nearly every time the results were that this bullet was far inferior to the SMK as far as consistant bullet expansion. As mentioned. Goodgrouper did perhaps the most extensive expansion test I have seen with this bullet and at ranged of 1/2 this range, expansion on a hydrated target was extremely inconsistant with many bullets bending and tumbling and showing severe deflection as they penetrated a target.

    The bullets shot in the post you refer to were shot into what appears to be very hard, rock dirt, so if your wanting to put a trophy rock on the wall, they likely would work great, I would not use them on big game from what I have seen personally and what has been repeatedly reported here.

    Again, I see absolutely nothing in his article that proved a 338 Lapua was capable of consistant shot placement at 2700 yards, in fact he proved just the opposite with his one shooting.

    Last thing, shooting a target of that size at 2700 yards on 8x...... Please. I am not one to say you need ultra high power optics but you do need to be able to see your target and have the target large enough that you can hold a quality reticle hold on the target to make the shot. On 8x, the reticle would completely cover up the target. That may have been something to why he shot as poorly as he did.

    Again, alot of missed and one "lucky" hit at 2707 yards tells me nothing except that this range is out of the useful range of the 338 Lapua.

    One other question, how did he measure 2707.7 yards. I may have missed it but I do not believe he offered that information. Unless he is using a Leica Vector or some other military grade range finder I would not put to much stock in the fact he was actually shooting that far.

    I made a 2370 yard kill on a rock chuck and using a Wilde range finder, I came up with an average of 2450 yards, then I used Google Earth and GPS to measure it and came up with 2480 and 2500 yards respectively. It was not until I had a friend come out that had a miltary surplus laser range finder that we were able to accurately measure the shot. We took dozens of ranges using the instrument off solid heavy tripods and came up with a range of 2365 to 2385 yards. To confirm the accuracy of this unit we checked the unit at a known 1000 yard range and it averaged within 1 yard of that measurement. Because of this I had to agree that the shooting distance was 2370 yards. I would have much preffered to say it was 2500 yards but that was not accurate.

    Simply put, unless you have a very high quality instrument to measure straight line of sight from shooting position to target, you are likely not getting an accurate range measurement and I know very few that own equipment that will give accurate measurements out to 2707 yards.

    Anyway, I find it amusing that the boys over on the hide hammer the hell out of someone for posting a 4 shot group instead of a 5 shot group and basically call him a liar and ban him from the site for a while but then this guy can fully admit his rifle is not consistant at all at this range with his own shooting results but then say that the 338 Lapua is totally capable of making three precision shots at this range with as many shots down range. WOW!!!

    He also states that he proved that the rifle was consistant as far as point of impact shifts that were consistant with adjustment in the scope so "THAT MUST MEAN THE BULLET IS FULLY STABILIZED AT THESE RANGES." How can he determine this as he reports he only fired 5 shots total at the target, so he is saying he tested both directional shift in the vertical adjustment range and both directions in the horizontal adjustment plane with only five shots and determined the rifle was consistant. If that were the case, why was there only one shot that impacted the 3 FOOT diameter target?

    All he proved, AGAIN, was that if you put enough bullets in the air, you will eventually hit what your shooting at, this was many of our points all along. Hell, even if he had gotten a couple shots on steel it would have ment much more. Were the test shooting conditions ideal, nope, but I have shot many times in winds this strong and stronger and once you find the dial in point and read the conditons, its not hard to hold under 1 moa, this guy was shooting three times that size of groups......

    Again, he says he proves something but his report proves the exact opposite in my opinion.

    I still solidly stand by my comments about the original post of this story, a 338 Lapua will not stay consistant out to anywhere near this range but again my standard of consistant is sub moa. I guess if 3 moa is alright with you, it will certainly do this......
     
  6. japple

    japple Well-Known Member

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    Fifty,
    You make many good points, But I believe all that he is trying to say is that it was possible. And I think he proved that it was "possible". I don't believe he said that it was probable, just possible. As for the range, he used a 9 digit grid coordinate for latitude and longitude, for both the position of the target and of the shooting position. I am not saying that results are factual or that everything stated was real. I am just saying that in all some crazy stuff can happen and based on my limited understanding of balistics and rifle calibers, I believe that the shot is possible but highly unlikely.
     
  7. tackb

    tackb Well-Known Member

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    If i was a sniper and people were trying to kill me or my buddies and they were 2707 yds away i would certainly have a punt at them what can it hurt ? meanwhile my spotter could be calling in arty or air ? ultimatly they did shoot and did hit and it's been proved it's possible so hats off to them? as for terminal results , well i think a 338 hole in you is going to properly upset your day weather it expands or not?
     
  8. I went and read the full story of his test and agree with Fiftydriver that this test pretty much disproved the story as it was written. No big surprise.
     
  9. jwp475

    jwp475 Well-Known Member

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    It is my understanding that the Grit took 9 shots to get on target and then hit 2 in a row. If you run the numbers in Exbal at a n altitude of 9000 Feet of elevation the 300 SMK will stay supersomic with a 2800 FPS starting velocity. While the 250 grain is the normal projectile for the Britt's 338's it is not out of the realm of reason that he may have been useing a 300 grain projectile
     
  10. phorwath

    phorwath Well-Known Member

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    I think every person should believe what they want to believe, just to feel good about the whole thing.

    Whatever you do, don't try to go 2 for 11 at 2707 yds. It'll just ruin the feel-good moment. Or 1 for 12 on a machine gun. Spoil your entire belief system.

    The author of the Thread on the Hide. He surely made some profound conclusions based on the evidence presented. I'd hate to have him diagnosing me as my doctor, dentist, or my surgeon.

    My hats off to the sniper no matter how many rounds or sighters it took. If he's a trained sniper, he probably feels luckier than any of us consider him to be, because he knows how unlikely hits were at that range even if he adapted and did everything as well as could be expected.
     
  11. pitbull320

    pitbull320 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with kirby we have had this discussion many times at his shop and a shot at 2700yrds with a 388lapa is pure a$$ luck any way you slice it so great job to the sniper but it was still pure luck if it really happened
     
  12. Topshot

    Topshot Well-Known Member

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    The story may or may not be BS. But the interesting thing to me is the obvious bullet expansion at low velocity.

    I have also read that the 250 scenar is a very hard bullet, but this shooter states that he was using 300 grain scenars. It appears as if this bullet is softer than that reported for the 250 grain bullet.

    If this is correct then it should make a fine hunting bullet. There seems to be a lack of evidence one way or the other so I guess I will have to find out for myself the old fashion way. Just buy a box and blast them down range.............................................................gun)
    Its a tough job but someone has to do it :D
     
  13. phorwath

    phorwath Well-Known Member

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    It looked like he shot into dirt with a fair amout of rock in it. I wouldn't get too optimistic about performance on muscle & water. But do let us know how it goes if you put them to the test.
     
  14. liltank

    liltank Well-Known Member

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    All right Kirby!:rolleyes: I want you to test your theory of this being a BS shot. When you get a moment, I would like you to use all your shooting knowledge and gun building expertise. From all your shooting exploits on this sight you obviously have the knowledge of a sniper and their abilities. Let's test it. I don't own the caliber or the range ability for this shot, so it is up to you to disprove this story once and for all on this sight. Not trying to start a fight here, just want to see the loudest disapproval.... disprove it! I want you to know and all who read this that I respect Kirby, and his expertise on all things rifle and hunting. I think he is a great resource for this sight and enjoy reading his articles, gun updates, and most of all... his pics of his builds.

    Guideline's are as follows: Must be a bullet with a BC equivalent of .662 (Lapua FMJBT 250grn), and a Secant ogive. If you have the same bullet that would even be better, but the Hornady 250 HPBT Match would also be acceptable. The Sierra can not be used due to design because it goes out of supersonic stability past 1800 to 2200 yards at normal elevation. IF you can shoot at an elevation of 5000 ft or more that the 250 Sierra MK will stay super sonic to that distance, then it may be used. Must have a velocity of 2850 to 2950. Barrel length must be 28 to 30 inches. No longer, no shorter.

    I would like to see you use a 338 Lapua and the Allen Mag (obviously the AM will have a higher velocity which is okay. Should you pull this off, it would be a good promo for your Raptor). Conditions need to be as calm as can be. One thing everyone is over looking is the 18 to 21mph changing wind that the guy on the Hide had to deal with. This in all truth could have been the reason for any push to the left or right of the target. Also because he made a hit says that it can most certainly be done in calmer conditions. It was cool that he even hit the target in those conditions. So calm conditions should prove better results.

    It must be shot from the prone position. Shooting from a wall is not an option. Or shooting sticks that provide maximum stability in the seated position. I have seen some of their setups and they aren't your normal shooting sticks. A lot of webbing is used for maximum stability.

    Chances are that he made the shot from a mountain side across desert land which in all assumption not knowing his position in country, would be flat or very few rolling hills. You must shoot at a man size silhouette. The sniper claimed calm conditions. Therefore we need to assume, because I have spent a few months in the Mojave training, that you can only allow a wind velocity of 0 to 3mph for a cross wind. It can be very calm and very still in the desert during the morning until noon, and sometimes all day long (at 130 degrees you pray for a breeze and sometimes never get one!:D). You must use the best possible conditions that you can possibly wait for. This is what the sniper claimed to have.

    11 shots are all that are allowed (fewer shots are acceptable if hits are made). Any hits on target are acceptable. It must be a rifle capable of .25 to .5 MOA. That is the shooting ability of a sniper and his equipment. You are more than likely going to have to use hold over. Also for windage, for a shot that lands just to the right or left can and should be corrected with holding to the appropriate position. I have a feeling that is what he did ( the sniper) and dialed windage as close as possible. Most importantly, the distance must be between 2695 and 2710 yards.

    Exceptions: target may be any color for clarity. You may choose your shooting position against the wind. If you have to shoot in high wind conditions, then 6 o'clock or 12 o'clock positions would be my preference if possible. To mimic calm conditions you may use flags on ridge lines to allow for sighting for changing wind conditions. Optics of your choice may be used, but if you own an S&B with the correct reticule then that would be the obvious choice.

    Willing to accept it? Help us believe your theory, but you must take you time and act as if you life depends on these shots being made. Let's put this thing to rest and take Phorwath with you as a spotter. Again, not trying to start a battle of ego's and I hold this challenge in the greatest respect of you as a builder/marksman.

    Respectfully,
    Tank
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2010