300 Varminter Update

[Fiftydriver]

BH,

Nice try, I am sure you have been waiting since the last time to bait me into another meaningless debate where one side offers solid hard proven data and the other side dives into personal attachs because they have nothing to debate.

In the beginning I made two very clear points about my opinion of this project. NEVER ONCE, have either of you said or offered any data or results of any kind to put even the slightest nick in my points.

I will not bring them up again, why, because you did not hear them the first time, or second, or third, or fourth or fifth or ever. I am sure you never even read them, just picked and choosed what you wanted to get into some type of a personal ****in match.

Not this time.

For the record, for those that are not aware of the history of this topic and my comments, I have NEVER ONCE said anything against Richard or his rifle building skills. I have never said the rifle will not shoot great, I have never said this rifle will not be lethal on varmints at long ranges.

I made two clear points, if you want to know them, do some research because I am sick of trying to have a meaningful debate when someone has a personal ax to grind.

It has gotten so laughable that those that are on the other side of the topic, HAVE, on several occasions, in their own type, fully agreed with my two points 100%, yet still they debate..................

Wasted time.

Again, I made two original points, I will make one final one and then I am done, This topic is not abbrasive to me in any way BH, I was making the point, why would you keep opening an old wound if you KNEW it would cause these arguements with no useful results. Get the rifle, shoot it, test it, report on it, thats great we all want that, we all want to know the honest results but WHY, week after week, bring up this same topic by posting that "I talked to someone that has one" topic over and over again.

Wasted time and again, you have yet to put even a chip in my original points. They are as true now as they were when I first made them. If you actually read my comments you know what those pointer were but I suspect you have no idea.

Again, nice try, its been a bit of a wait but you will have to wait even longer for another of your meaningless ****in matches.

Wildcat,

Good luck with the rifle, get it and let us know how things work. Maybe someday you can bring it up there where theres more then a mouse fart for wind and we will see how she performs in Montana.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[wildcat]

To Lerch and others that are so concerned with the following;

1. Field Results
2. Chrono Results
3. Groups and pics
4. Brass Life
5. Pressure.

Regarding field results; Lerch, I just talked about how the 300 Varminter performed in the field in this exact post, what else do you need. It's performing very well out to 600 yards with the 110grn V-Max and the 125grn BT is performing well out to 800 yards. I 've posted this many times as well. I have seen the 300 Varminter in action twice and both times it performed very very well, even in the windy conditions. Sure, it was not my 300 Varminter, however, it's the same freakin thing.

Regarding chrono results, I've posted the chrono results a couple of times. The 300 varminter, on average, pushes the 110grn V-Max at 4125fps and the 125grn BT at 4025fps. I've gotten this information from Richard Franklin himself as well as 4 other owners of the 300 Varminter. Aren't Richard's chrono results good enough. Every 300 Varminter owner I have spoken with, have all said they're all seeing velocities in the 4025fps to 4050fps with the 125grn BT and 4125fps to 4150fps with the 110grn V-Max. What other results do you want. So there is your chrono results you said you have never seen.

Regarding groups and pics; go to Richard's web page and see the groups by the 300 Varminter at 100 yards, It is capable of shooting in the .1's, just look at the picture. The 300 Varminter owners I have talked to said it is producing amazing groups even at 800 yards. Richard has video of him shooting groups at over 713 yards. With un-fire formed brass and the 110grn V-Max, he shot a 5 shot group at 713 yard into a 3 1/2" group. With un-fire formed brass and using the 125grn BT, he shot a 5 shot group at 713 yards into a 3" group. That's pretty **** good with un-formed brass and poly tipped bullets. Richard and the owners of the 300 Varminter are averaging groups in the .2's to .3's at 100 yards and the same out to 200 yards. Richard also informed me the Rifle will shoot in the .1's too, it just depends on the shooter. What other group results do you guys want.

Regarding Brass life; Richard, as well as the others are getting around 3 to 4 firings per case. Not bad for all that speed and performance.

Regarding pressure; Richard and all the other owners are having NO pressure issues. The rifle is performing very well with he VV-N550 powder. The N550 is part of the reason the pressure is so managable with the type of load that is being used. Richard also explains that the 1-15 twist Bartlien Barrel is another reason for managing the pressure.

Lerch these are your exact words "When has any real honest solid data been posted about this rifle" Well to answer you, there has been a bunch. You just read it and most of the info came from the man who built the 300 Varminter, as well as many others who own the 300 Varminter. I guess your saying Richard's information is not honest and the information I received from the other owners are just made up. Wow, if you don't beleive that information, than why would you ever beleive me even when I get my rifle.

There are your freakin results and there HONEST as hell. Most of this information came from Richard.

W.

 

[jwp475]

To say that it is safe to exceed SAAMI pressure spec is amazing to say the least. A friend that I went to school with, son had a bolt blow out and hit him in the face this past Deer season and the after math is not pleasant. Any one shooting any ammo above 62 to 65000 PSI average pressure is in dangerous territory whether you believe it or not....

We all shoot high pressure loads as SAAMI loads for the 300 WSM are about 65000 PSI max if memory serves, but over this are in fact refered to as proof loads and are not considered safe for long term use. Safe means to remove the danger all of the danger. I have seen many people in my industry do unsafe acts and most get away with it, but not all..


Why don't you explain to me how it is safe to exceed SAAMI standards on a regular basis and then everyone on this board will know....

 

[Fiftydriver]

Wildcat,

Not wanting to start any ****ing match here, just something I wanted to share with you that goes back to my original comment way back when this debate started in which I said it was not a good idea to say a 300 WSM can get you 4000 fps with a 125 gr Btip because some will hear this and not realize that the rifle achieving this level of performance is dramtically stronger then a factory offered 300 WSM.

I have a personal project I am working on, needed a Rem 700 SA that was set up for a WSM chambering, as such, I ordered in a Rem 700 in 300 WSM. I had an old Lilja 1-15 3 groove barrel sitting here in the shop that was a take off barrel from a customers rifle. It was chambered in 300 Wby and had a 32" finish length. Called the owner and told him what I wanted to do and he said go for it and he was interested to hear the results as he had been reading your comments on LRH.

Anyway, shortened the barrel and screwed it into the Rem 700 receiver after it has been accurized. The reamer used was my custom min spec reamer. Not tight neck but min spec. Turning necks is a pain I do not care to deal with as a nessesity to shoot a rifle.

Finish length of the barrel came out right at 30". Slapped the barreled receiver into a McMillan A-5 stock I had here in shop.

Results. Proved my point exactly, even though this was basically a custom rifle based on a Rem 700, I was dramatically loosening primer pockets out of the Winchester 300 WSM cases at 3800 fps with the 125 gr BTip. At 3850 fps, I was getting gas leakage after two firings.

At 3875 fps, I had two of the five primers fall out of the case when I ejected them.

In this rifle, to get 3-4 firings, I was limited to 3750 fps and thats it. again, this was a Lilja barrel which I am sure is tighter then what Richard uses but its hard to imagine that you could get another 250 to 300 fps with just a change in barrel.

Now I know you are saying the 300 WSM Norma cases are the ones to use. I had 9 of these from a customers project I did a bit ago. Loaded them up where the Winchester cases stopped. They DID give me a whopping 50 fps more velocity with same case life results......

Accuracy, even unbedded in this stock, I was getting sub inch groups at 350 yards consistantly.

back to my original point which was one of only two I ever mentioned to you, for those that may hear of a 300 WSM getting 4000 fps with a 125 gr BTip, its not realistic or safe in anything but a full custom receiver which originally you did not argue. Only after I pointed this danger out did you add this to your comments.

Now I do have a Nesika Bay Model M receiver sitting here and I seriously considered fitting that barrel to this receiver as well just to see if that mythical 250 fps could be had with this much stronger receiver but to be honest, figured it would be best just to wait for your results.

So while I am not saying its not possible, I go back to my original point from the start, when there are factory rifles out there chambered in 300 WSM, its not really smart to be doing something like this and spreading it all over the web for anyone to read as many that do read it will not comprehend the part about needing a dramatically stronger receiver to haev any chance to get near this performance.

I hope you get what you expect but I would love to get ahold of some of your cases after you get a couple firings on them at 4000 fps.

Anyway, just another test. I was not even going to bring this up but BH kind of rubbed me the wrong way, as I am sure he intended to do so I decided to pull out the notes from this test a couple months ago. To be honest, if you had not brought this up every week, I probably would have forgotten about it.

Again, for those not familiar with this topic, if you have a factory 300 WSM, do not in any way believe that your rifle is capable of getting anywhere near this level of performance, even with custom barrel, trued factory receiver and min spec barrel.

I simply wish Richard would change something on the "300 Varminter" that would prevent his rounds from being chambered in a conventional 300 WSM rifle. as I see it, his over pressured rounds would chamber perfectly well in a factory rifle.

This was my main concern, safety first!!!

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Pdvdh]

Promoting Richard Franklin?

Wildcat,

If you think you're doing Richard Franklin a favor by bantering on and on and on and on ad-nauseum about Richard's 300 WSM (is it Richard's or yours) then I want to tell you that you're having the opposite affect with me. You might want to ask Richard to read some of your posts here and ask him if he really wants you to serve as his mouth piece.

Walt Disney no longer wanted Nancy Karrigan to represent them for advertising purposes after she got caught saying that Mickey Mouse was stupid on national television. It was too alienating to Walt Disney customers. You might find out that Richard would rather not have you serve as his ambassador for purposes of presenting the positives of his rifle building abilities or his 300 WSM. You may be getting a kick out of this, but to continue with this banter in the belief that you're doing Richard a favor... well, you might better check with Richard before you do him too many more favors.

If Richard did read your posts and asked you to continue with this never ending rant on the miracle and magic of his 300 WSM, then that would be enough to ensure he never received my business or money. You and Bountyhunter might consider posting for some of Richard's business competitors if you really want to do him a favor. My perspective for what it's worth (maybe very little to you) - your effort to drum up business for Richard - or to further his reputation - are misguided.

 

[lerch]

okay well first off you went and shot some one elses rifle a couple of times and posted about how well it shot, with no pics or proof of anything. that aint a big deal at all really, the pics would just be nice and would help your case.

Chrono results, how about SD or ES measurments ??? remember consistancy is the name of the game when several football fields come into play.

Okay pics from richards website. are these the same ones where he claimed a rifle that shot in the .2's would shot a 2" group at 1K???? maybe he didnt claim it but im just askin?

ya we all pay a price for a high preformance round when it comes to brass life, but 3 firings per case aint good no matter how you slice it.

As far as pressure signs, there is a whole lot more to it than just a stiff bolt lift. primers coming out flattened, extractor marks, what i like to call case head wipe, etc.

when me and Bill got the first 270AM's to come from Kirby we put alot of trust in him, and we did the testing when we got the rifles. sure we went off of what he was saying but ya we were a little worried. we tested, we proved it and more, and to be honest i hope the same for you. only problem is physics were in our favor.

as for the speed, that powder maybe God's gift to you but pressure is pressure and your still stressing that case.

in the end the what really matters is consistancy in varying conditions, at least to me it matters, and im sorry but with that bullet past 400-500yds you aint gonna get it. you will get a hell of a splat when you hit though

 

[wildcat]

Kirby, thanks for your info. However, you didn't use a Custom Action, Match Chamber with a .337 tight neck, a Bartlien 1-15 twist Barrel, or VV-N550 powder which are all part of the equation. So you probably should not post anything until you get everything right. If you do that, and you don't get the same results, than maybe I will believe you. However, I am going to trust Richard over you. Regarding the brass, as long as I get two firings out of it, I will be happy. I will just buy more as long as I get what I want out of the rifle which is speed and splat factor on varmints.

If I come out your way, I would bring my 30-338 Lapua Improved using a 208grn A-MAX. Your right about our wind compared to yours. Your wind is 10 times worse than ours, so I know why you really need those high BC bullets even at ranges like 400 yards and out.

Kirby, let me get one thing straight before I go. I don't have a problem with you at all. I know your just trying to help, and I respect that. But I want to try this project and combo out to see if I like it. I have heared that it is really working well.

W.

 

[jwp475]

Kirby, thanks for your info. However, you didn't use a Custom Action, Match Chamber with a .337 tight neck, a Bartlien 1-15 twist Barrel, or VV-N550 powder which are all part of the equation. So you probably should not post anything until you get everything right. If you do that, and you don't get the same results, than maybe I will believe you.
W.

Wildcat, Valedictorian of the Marie La Bow School of Voodoo Ballistics

 

[wildcat]

To everyone, thanks for all your info you provided on this project. I look forward to your comments on my 30-338 Lapua Improved build designed around the 208grn A-Max 210grn VLD and MK.

I know I got a little excited about this project, but that's what happens when you had to sell all of your custom rigs. I had to sell 5 custom rifles about a year and a half ago, so I am pretty ancy to say the least. So, I am sorry for all of the posts, I am just excited to get back into it.

The bottom line, I am building the rifle because I want to. I am not upset at anyone, after all were are discussing rifles.

Lerch, thanks for all your help, and I appreciate your input too. I have nothing aganst you either, your just trying o help just like Kirby, and I respect that.

JWP475, I have nothing against you either. I appreciate everyones help and criticism too. I take no offence to anyones opinions. Once again, even though at times these posts get a little testy, I know the bottom line is everyone is just trying to help, so thanks for everything. Have a good night, and may you all kill a bunch of little varmints tomorrow.


W.

 

[eddybo]

What no parts list on the 30-338 Lapua? You could save some time by adding the parts lists of all your upcoming rifles to your signature line. That way it will show up in every post. Good luck with your 300 WSM. I understand that you are building a specialty gun for a specialty situation, which you beleive will fill your need perfectly. BUT I am tired of heraing about it. You knew you were going to start a little teacup tempest with it. Why would you come into Len's living room with that intent. I am sure Richard is a good builder. I have read at least one of his articles on stress free bedding......but I aint buying any of his guns because of these posts.
He should modify that case to some degree to keep someone from losing an eye. It wouldnt take much change to stop them from chambering in a stock firearm.
Say one of the owners owns a couple of 300WSMs one is a custom 300 varminter the other a remmy. Now say this guy has a teenage son who happens to see a nice deer in the back yard. The son runs in grabs the first rifle he can find and picks up the remmy. Then scrambles to find a round....ah ha here is a loaded 300wsm round. Son loses an eye because he jams a case chocked full of vv550 into a factory rifle with a 10 twist. If you ever get one of the safeguard your ammo, sounds like a time bomb to me.

 

[Fiftydriver]

No I did not use a custom receiver, I admitted that. I garantee you my reamer is every bit as tight in the head and body as Richards reamer. No I do not use a tight neck. Will this allow the round to produce an extra 250 fps, NEVER.

I think you misunderstand the reason for the tight neck. Its simply for the purpose that you turn your neck thickness down so that all are exactly the same and you can fit the neck to your chamber. You get more uniform bullet pulls and in theory better bullet run out, you DO NOT get the ability to load to higher pressures, period, that is not and has never been an advantage of a tight necked chamber.

Again, from the neck back, I garantee you that my reamer is every bit as tight as Richards as I designed it myself off actual cases, not SAAMI specs and as such simply does not allow the case to stretch much over original specs, except in the case head where no chamber will prevent case head expansion, nor will any receiver.

I did not use a Bart barrel either, again, pointed that out as well, again, I have never seen one brand of barrel be a legit 100 fps faster then another top end barrel with same twist rate. That is when using same loads. I have built on bartline barrels, have a couple in the shop as we speak. I have also used a load of Rock, Broughton, Hart, Krieger, Pac Nor, ABS and certainly a load of Lilja barrels. I have used 3 groove, 4 groove, 6 groove, 8 groove, 5R, 5C, 5S and pretty much any other rifling configuration you could think of. I have used enough of these different barrels with same test loads in same chamberings to know for a fact that with the same loads, there is seldom more then 100 fps difference from the very fastest to the very slowest barrels with same loads.

AN example of this was one barrel maker that promised me I could never loosen a primer pocket with his barrel because his rifling design pretty much flattened the pressure spike on ignition.

Sounded great to me, I was thinking I would get serious performance increases. I got the test barrel in and built the rifle which was chambered in 6.5 wsm. TO test the rifle I loaded my standard load which I use in my personal 6.5 wsm which has a Lilja 3 groove barrel.

First shot was obviously hot, primer very flattened. Second shot, gas leak!!!! VElocity was more then the Lilja barrel of same length, by a whopping 65 fps. When I dropped the load back down to where it had good case life, it matched the Lilja so close its velocities fell into the same ex range as the Lilja barrel. Took less powder to get there though.

Oh, and that was a tight necked chamber.....

And why do you not think I was using VV-N550? Thats exactly what I used my friend. You assume far to much.

NOW WE ARE GETTING TO THE HONEST PART OF THE PERFORMANCE!!!!

"Regarding the brass, as long as I get two firings out of it, I will be happy. I will just buy more as long as I get what I want out of the rifle which is speed and splat factor on varmints."

Now you have let the cat out of the bag, I have been waiting for you to do this and I figured if you talked enough, you would. You have claimed long case life all along, something that simply spits in the face of internal ballistics with this case and the performance numbers.

Why in the hell would you be happy with only 2 firings per case when everyone else you have talked to is supposed to be getting 2-3 times this many firings? That comment makes no sense at all but tells volumes of your true expectations for this rifle.

I have been suspicious of this all along. When someone runs a chambering up to very high pressure, they generally get very short case life. When they promote the rounds, they often say that they did not improve the case for one reason, its not worth it because the cases are spent after only a couple firings so they do not want to bother with fireforming.

I talked to very wel know 338-416 Rigby shooter a couple years ago. I was working with the 338 Kahn and was getting around 3100 fps with the 300 gr SMK. I called Dick up as he was reporting he was getting 3250 fps with his 338-416 which is capacity wise nearly identical to the Kahn. I asked him how he was getting his cases to last with these velocity levels, his reply, "case life, hell, if I get one firing I am happy, just give me the performance and I will throw the brass after the first firing."

I suspect this project is nearly the same and have for some time. With the receiver your using, no problem, you will not have any safety concerns, again, back to my original point which you still fail to understand, its very dangerous to put this information in front of everyone in the world when there are so many factory rifles and semi custom rifles chambered in the 300 WSM that these loads would chamber perfectly well in and be very dangerous to fire.

Imagine the old 45 Colt. I love the colt. Have several of them. I load my Rugers up to very high pressures, I drive a 330 gr LBT bullet to just over 1250 fps in a 5" barrel. If this load got into an old Colt SSA or a replica of that revolver, it would likely take it apart. This is the same situation.

Why do I do this with the 45 Colt then when I say its unsafe in your example? I load my colt so that the 330s are seated to the end of the cylinder. If they happen to be loaded into a colt SSA, they would be far to long for the cylinder to even rotate preventing them from being used in the inappropriate revolver......

Again, that has been my main point all along but you seem to think its a performance thing.

Seems some will simply not open their ears to read logic.

You should in fact trust your smith if you are paying him big $$ to built a dollar, if you did not, you would not be the most intellegent person around.

I have nothing against you either except that you will not listen to logic. I am certainly not telling you nor have I EVER told you to not do this project the way Richard is building the rifles.

All I have EVER said is two points, I was not going to bring them up again but her goes,

1. This is dangerous to promo this level of performance in the standard 300 WSM when so many factory rifles are out there and there is no preventing your loads from being loaded in a factory rifle or semi custom rifle on a factory receiver where these loads would be extremely dangerous.

2. Capacity wise, to get a 125 gr BT to 4000 fps, you simply can not get anywhere near this level of velcoity without leaving SAAMI chamber pressures WAY behind. Another simple fact.

All along you have commented that case life was great. Now you say you would be happy to get two firings and throw the cases. That is not common for a varmint rifle shooter, that is not common for any rifle shooter.

And finally, if you think you will have a wonder gun, your sadly mistaken, there are trade offs for performance. you will realize what those are when you get your rifle.

Will it work, I am sure it will, if it did not, Richard would be paying for every lawyers kid to go to school because rifles were coming apart. But I am nearly 100% positiive that he has told you that case live will be very short but you have not passed that onto us. Until now that is anyway.

I knew if you talked long enough, you would give us the secret behind this level of performance and I was not wrong.

IF you are trashing your cases because of blown primer pockets after 2 firings, yes, I could see where 4000 fps is possible. Still, not smart. Hope you never run into a case with a weak head or even your very expensive custom receiver will be reduced to a useless piece of scrap metal.

Good luck, keep those shooting glasses on at all times because if you load to this level, you WILL need them someday with this rifle. Not saying anything will come apart but a blown primer can extremely nasty. Even leaked gas can get you in the eye and face.

Again realize that my comments are not directed toward helping you at this point, they are more toward protecting others that want to do this with factory rifle where this would be very unsafe.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[Fiftydriver]

Eddybo,

Common sense speaks, maybe from you it will be listened to. Obviously from me it means nothing.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[jwp475]

IF you are trashing your cases because of blown primer pockets after 2 firings, yes, I could see where 4000 fps is possible. Still, not smart. Hope you never run into a case with a weak head or even your very expensive custom receiver will be reduced to a useless piece of scrap metal.

Good luck, keep those shooting glasses on at all times because if you load to this level, you WILL need them someday with this rifle. Not saying anything will come apart but a blown primer can extremely nasty. Even leaked gas can get you in the eye and face.

Kirby Allen(50)

Even if his receiver is undamaged a catastrophic case failure is still a dangerous affair.. I have seen this happen and even when the action can take it the shooter still received a face full of hot powder gases and debris, it was not a pretty sight..

I know how to get 2900 FPS out of a 338 Win Mag with 250 grain bullets, the catch is that the pressure in around 80,000 PSI, and oh yea you get one fireing per case... Safe I don't think so....

 

[Patriot44]

Wow, Wildcat tells you guys thank you for your help and tries to get along with you guys, and you continue to attack. Kirby, haven't you run some of your Allen Mags hot, I remeber you saying you had. I will agree with Wildcat on one thing, this site has turned into a Kirby Allen love fest and if you go against the grain, the Kirby Allen cult will attack. I have a couple of questions; Why would a gunsmith like Richard Franklin promote a cartridge if it was unsafe? I am not trying to be an *** Kirby but the man has way more experience than you, and I have never seen an article written about your rifles. However, I've seen many articles about Richards builds and techniques. I don't think he would promote something if it didn't work or was unsafe. Why would 6mmBR.com allow a blog, about the 300 Varminter, to continue on it's site if it was going to be unsafe? Please, someone answer these questions. Wildcat, just wants to talk about his rifle, why do a few have to continue to tear him and the rifle apart. He has asked to please respect his post and not hijack it. Wildcat, I would just stop posting about it on this site. There are other sites that would be much better for you to post on. I love this site, but I think it's wrong for a group of people to pile on someone like this.

P44