300 ultra accuracy problems

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by birddog67, Feb 14, 2012.

  1. birddog67

    birddog67 Well-Known Member

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    built up and 300 Ultra from and 300 SPS . an houge stock with bedding block , Timmy trigger. teflon coated it and installed a muzzel brake . I had it shooting .63 at 100 yards with federal ammo bearclaws ,180 andit shot 180 XXX federals .68 100 yards . I ahve shot 40 target rounds thru the gun . and one deer . It has swarovski 4X12-50 BT scope which has been very accurate to 500 yards . Gun has been cleaned after each time shoot no copper build up in barrel , now my accuracy has went to crap . 1 1/2 " at 100 , also have checked FPS of AMMO and its within 35 FPS . Not sure what happen any help would be greatful . not sure where or what to check next ? any help woudl be appricated .:)
     
  2. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

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    This is not common. If XXX is indeed the Barnes tripple X I think you are refering to , it has to have some copper. What you are experiencing is what I have seen with many rifles and solid copper bullets. Especially when there has been a mix of copper jacket bullets too. Your problem is also agrivated by the high velocity of the Rum, meaning they foul worse with solid coppers. I have extensivly tested cleaners for this. I would highly recommend you buy a bottle of BoreTech CU+2 copper solvent. Or you can get by with BoreTech Eliminator too. I believe you have the common build up of copper that is associated with these type bullets. It takes a good cleaner to get it out. Get some Boretech and a nylon brush and start cleaning. It will take a good while to get it all and I think you will be amazed at the blue that will run from your barrel. No substitutes, BoreTech only.

    Good luck

    Jeff
     

  3. NZ Longranger

    NZ Longranger Writers Guild

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    The Boretech Cu+2 is good and used to be our copper solvent of choice but...then we discovered KG12. Jeff, you've just got to try some to believe the difference. Honestly, KG12 removes copper 10 times faster than Cu+2!!!! I kid you not, it is that good! When I did the review on the KG products line in the magazine, I soaked a BarnesX bullet in all the popular fastest removing copper solvents, and KG12 removed copper 10 times as much copper for an over night soaking than Cu+2. I'll give that article to Len to put on LRH because KG has completely revolutionized our barrel break-ins. One 5 minute soak will remove 99% of the copper out of the worst fouling barrels I've ever encountered, and another 5 mins will get the last bit. No more soaking overnight, etc. This stuff makes doing a break-in on rough factory barrels a reality, whereas with the previous solvents we'd have a quick go, then just resign ourselves to the fact that it would have to be a lifetime of the barrel process, if it ever happened at all. Now on reasonable factory barrels, you can get the copper out while you're loading the next round to shoot, its that quick.
    Greg
    ps I agree with Jeff though, certainly sounds like a copper fouling problem!
     
  4. Flare

    Flare Well-Known Member

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    Might check all your screws on the scope and stock for proper tightness.

    Corey
     
  5. Korhil78

    Korhil78 Well-Known Member

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    I havnt used the KG12 stuff. BUT does it contain all the stuff that makes all the other solvents smell so bad and can you leave it in your bore overnight with no damage done to the inside of the barrel?

    The things that I stated above are why I like to use Boretech CU+2 solvent.

    I just looked it up. I guess it does do all that stuff haha. I will have to get a bottle and try it out.
     
  6. paul2atlo8

    paul2atlo8 Well-Known Member

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    If every thing is tight(scope mounts,action screws)and you have not nicked the crown,then it's fouling bad!
    I use Montana Extreme 50bmg copper remover if I feel like brushing.
    If I don't then its Wipe Out Accelerator and Wipe Out over night I dont like KG because it leaves a film in the barrel while you are cleaning and is twice as hard to push the next patch threw. Hope this helps.:)
     
  7. NZ Longranger

    NZ Longranger Writers Guild

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    KG12 is not ammonia based, and is said to be harmless to barrels. You never need to soak overnight, as it removes even the most stubborn copper deposits in just a couple of 5 or 10 minute soaking. For 99% of barrels we've worked with in the last 6 months, one 5 minute soaking has removed all copper. We have a bore scope and can tell you exactly what we've been seeing, all copper gone after one 5 minute nylon brushing and soaking. We have only had one barrel that we had to do two 5 minute applications, and that was particularly bad factory barrel.
    I cannot tell you just what the active ingredient is, someone else maybe able to do that. I do know as I said that it is 10 times faster at removing copper than Cu+2.
    Greg
     
  8. NZ Longranger

    NZ Longranger Writers Guild

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    Paul,
    You are s'posed to use KG12 on a nylon brush, not a patch. Then you wipe it out with a degreaser, either their KG3 or we use a Loctite ODC free pump degreaser as its more convenient than the KG3 aerosol. There are no issues with films in the barrel or tight patches following the instructions anyway.
    Greg
     
  9. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

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    I have not tested KG12, but I am reuctant as I have proven in my rifle how good Boretech really is. I also have proven in my rifles and a few others that no fouling shots are needed from a freshly leaned bore. I have made 1/2 moa hits at 1400 with this process. How do you feel KG would be on first round accuracy at distance?

    Jeff
     
  10. NZ Longranger

    NZ Longranger Writers Guild

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    Jeff,
    In good bores, you can use what works for you. As I said, we used to use Cu+2, but don't bother now. We just use KG12 for all our copper removal operations. I still feel Boretech C4 is as good a carbon remover as any, including KG1.
    As to first shot accuracy, KG1 carbon remover followed by KG2 bore paste and a few drops of KG4 oil has proven to be the best fouler in the group cleaning recipe. The fouler is also hardly any slower. If you completely remove carbon and copper with KG or Boretech, we always find in a good barrel our fouling shot is significantly slower, enough that it needs to be allowed for. It may go in the group at 100 yards, but will drop out at range. So long as the shot goes in the group at 100 yards, and the amount its slower is consistent and repeatable, then you can allow for it for your first shot. We used to do drop charts with an extra column of come ups for the fouling shot, but with Shooter on an Android we don't use drop charts much for the real long shots anymore.
    For a first shot in the group at extreme range, its all about finding a cleaning system that suits your bore, but if you wanna remove copper and quick, then KG12 is where its at till something better comes along. And for factory barrels its a must in our opinion!
    Greg
     
  11. load

    load Well-Known Member

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    check the muzzle break for burrs or fire erosiongun)
     
  12. NZ Longranger

    NZ Longranger Writers Guild

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    Ps, Jeff, forgot to ask, what do you finish off with after Cu+2? We found that Cu+2 and Eliminator left the bore too dry, and used to finish with a patch of Kroil and some dry patches. Now with a very light rub with KG4 oil followed by dry patches, we get a fouling shot not down in velocity, that's what we finish and store our rifles with.
    Greg
     
  13. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

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    First off we should post a link with all the facts on Boretech solvents. What they will do and what they are intended for. Good reading here.


    Welcome to Bore Tech, Inc.


    Greg, Both CU+2 and Eliminator contain rust preventatives to protect your bore. I have found that leaving the bore damp from a damp patch is all the protection I need. Then as instructed on the bottle, I run a few dry patches down when I am ready to use the rifle again. Like I said I have tested first rounds from a clean cold bore on my 338LM to 1400 yards and was with in .25 moa of point of aim. Or to be more specific, I was in the 7" orange on my target. I have also tested this in my 300 win to 1000 yds and recently while breaking in a new 7mm-300 and working out drops. Even from a cold clean bore a 3 shot group was spot on out to 1100 and was holding 1/2 moa with 3 shots.

    All I do is patch the bore dry with 4 or 5 clean patches after cleaning if I am going out to shoot. Or if the rifle has been stored with a damp bore I do the dry patch out when going to shoot. I have alway lost first round accuracy with any oiled bores and have stopped doing it completely. I have grown to trust the suggestions BoreTech gives. Also I never seen slowed velocities from an oiled bore like you did. I actually saw increased velocity and impacts points were high when oil was in the bore until it was burnt out or "fouled" . Maybe a difference in oil ? Also, have you ever considered what kind on film oil could leave in a bore when introudcd to the high temps of firing a round? Just something I have thought about, maybe irrelevant, but could leave some additional carbon and now the clean bore is off to a bad start.

    It is my understanding that CU+2 is not intended for carbon removal. I was surprised you felt it did good at this. I use BoreTech C-4 when using CU+2 on severly coppered bores. But Elininator does get carbon as well as copper and I use it alone on all my precision rifle bores.

    As with you I have spent some time testing. My esting was done in the field and on the range with my ifles. I will not suggestthat everyone will get the same results. But I will tell you I jave proven this method to myself and it does work for me.

    In ending, I have yet to see any amonia based cleaner get more copper than BoreTech. Even the stinkest of the bunches I tested. I guess I a done with amonias and feel there is no need to take the chance of barrel damage from amonia left in to long. I know KG is not amonia based, but felt te need to add this is that I have seen.

    Jeff
     
  14. MTBULLET

    MTBULLET Well-Known Member

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    back to your ORIGINAL question, accuracy loss. My experience with the earlier mfg. SPS 300 RUM. was a shot out bbl after 272 rounds. I re-bbl'd with PAC-NOR and got to 832 rounds before "toast" again. I would strongly suggest you take rifle to someone who can use a borescope to check for "bad" stuff, IE: burned lead, or severe copper fouling. As to copper removal, ALL the mentioned products/methods work, I like Foul Out with Accelerator.