300 Tomahawk

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by remingtonman_25_06, Nov 18, 2005.

  1. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    The time is almost near and I'm scratching my head. I dont know if I can afford to shoot an Allen Mag with the wildcat bullets regularly enough to practice and become proficient with it. I like to shoot around 100 rounds week out of my rifles. Anyways, I was talking to a friend and telling him about the big 7mm AM with the 200g at around 3250fps. He said, well doesn't your 300 RUM shoot 3200fps with a 200g bullet? I said it sure does, with 95g Retumbo &200g AB it shoots 3225fps and gave a 3 inch group at 525 yards. He said whats the real advantage then? I told him the BC of the bullet on the 7mm is way higher and thats what counts. However, I was thinking that since you can already achieve 3225fps out of a 26" bbl, If I got say a 28"or 30" and improved the RUM to a Tomahawk version, would it be likely to gain another 200fps?? I was thinking somewhere in the ballpark of at least 3400fps with a 200g bullet. Now those ballistics aren't so far behind the big Allen Mag, except for the wind. Just curious if this is logical thinking since the improved version should at least 100fps maybe 150fps, plus the added barrel length of 2-4 inches should give at least another 100fps. About how fast could I expect to shoot the big 240g SMK?? I was thinking hopefully 3100fps.
     
  2. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    Stray thoughts

    The only way to save barrel money is to start shooting a 22 rifle a lot. 100 rds a week is going to burn up any magnum barrel in a year or less and a 300 Rum is no exception. Shooting mechanics and practice are best perfected at low recoil. If you just got to make a lot of noise then remember the guy that killed the prairie dog at 600+ with a 22 hornet. That guy knows how to shoot and shoot well. No great feat to kill the critter with some light speed magnum at that range but true skill needed for the little hornet. A 22 hornet makes some noise and is easy on barrels For me no great skill needed with a 17 Remington until you get beyond 300 yds at which time I start to sweat. I really like it as a fun to shoot gun. Other calibers would be a 223, and some of the benchrest type calibers.

    A 300 Tomahawk will burn up a barrel in a hurry, you are not saving any money. You are going to need a new chamber and throat every six months at 100 rds a week.
    A 300 Tomahawk is about a 100 fps slower than a 30-378. The 240 SMK is the bullet of choice with a BC of 0.711. That is about the only way you can out shoot the 7AM with the 200 WC without going to the 338s. Not every gunsmith has a 300 tomahawk reamer although some very good ones do. It will cost you the same as the 7AM to get a chamber cut. I don’t know what Kirby charges on dies nor do I know if the tomahawk has any commercially available dies but that is a small cost in the total.

    I am not the expert on this but am trying to learn more about setting a barrel back. Once a gunsmith has a reamer then it is much cheaper for him to chamber a barrel. Once you have a barrel you no longer need to pay for a new barrel – just the reaming of the chamber and the rethreading of the barrel shank. (plus I guess you would spend $15 to have the crown freshened up) I say again I am not a gunsmith but am trying to learn about this because I do not want to be spending a truck load of money every year on a whole new barrel. There is something about the amount of barrel shank needed per setback that I do not have a good handle on. How much extra barrel length does one need per setback and how many times can you set back a barrel?

    A 7 twist 7mm barrel cost the same as a 10 twist 30 cal barrel. Wildcat bullets are not expensive bullets\comparatively speaking. Accuracizing the action is the same no matter what chamber it is screwed onto and that is only once per action.

    First and foremost I recommend you spend more time shooting small caliber rifles for practice and shoot the over bore magnums much less.
     

  3. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

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    The 300 Tomahawk is really Darryl Cassel's baby. He can give you all the info you need on it. he dosen't frequent this forum anymore, but if you post it over at PLRH he is around there.
    The one I got to play with for a very short time would do a 240 SMK at 3208 fps from a 30" Hart.

    While I agree with many of buffalobob's points, I think he is being a bit pessimistic on barrel life... as long as that 100rds a week isnt in a single session that is. Again, DC can answer your questions... I think he has 3 if memory serves.
    I too was thinking about a 300tomahawk for a while, but the more ive investigated it, Im thiking about going a little smaller. Compare the 7stw with the 176gr cantacaro bullet ( MEASURED) BC of .750 to the 300tomahawk with the 240's .711. Much less recoil too, though it may not be quite the ticket for 100rds a week either.
     
  4. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    I wont shoot the big boomer 100 times a week. Probly more like 100 times a month I would be happy. Probly not even that. I like to shoot my other calibers, 220 swift and my 25-06 around 50 shots each week out of each rifle. Those are where I get my practice in. I still shoot my fair share of shots a month out of my 300 RUM. I was mainly concerned about the extra added velocity was all by going to a 28" and improving it.

    I am still totally out for anything. I punch numbers quite often just to keep me thinking. I cannot personally shoot more than 1000 yards accurately. Maybe with the right custom built rifle, that will not be out of the question. I want this gun for Longer range 600-1000 for deer, black bear, and elk. I wanted to kinda stick with .30 cal, but was open to 7mm, as well as maybe 338. There is just soooooo many more bullets to choose from in 30 cal. Also, the frontal diameter keeps me thinking I should not go any lower than 30 cal for 1000 yard shots. How would the 176g cauterucio do in say a 7 RUM improved with a 28" bbl?? That would be interesting. Pretty much, I want the most inherently accurate cartridge, that will put the smack down on an elk or bear at 1000 yards. Different days, bring different thoughts.
     
  5. daveosok

    daveosok Guest

    I have the 7mm Tomahawk reamer here and am going to build the gun her when the Krieger barrel shows up.
    I had a 7mm stw and the Berger 180 grain bullets behind 74.5 grains of H1000 in a 34 inch barrel produced 3100 fps with no signs of pressure. I think this was actually a low load and I could have gotten probably 78 or so grains before pressure signs.
    With the ability of this new case capacity and dropping to H50BMG I think starting out at around 90 grains and leading up to 105 grains will net 3300 or close to it possibly over it before pressure signs.
    I am really interested in this new ball powder coming from Hodgdon 869 or something like that.
    This new barrel is a 4 groove 1:8 twist and because of the length I think after talking to a few folks about the 200 grain pills that I should be able to stabilize them. I know the Berger's will shoot though so if the 200 doesnt work out Ive got the 180 grain covered.
    I think that in the 7mm tommy I should see easily 3300 fps with the 180 and think that 3300 is very close to what the jacket can handle before deformity starts affecting accuracy.
    Dave
     
  6. demarpaint

    demarpaint Well-Known Member

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    I own a 300 Tomahawk, and a 30-338 Lapua, AKA 30 Wolf. The Tomahawk was designed to shoot 220 and 240 SMK bullets, it will also fire the 300 RUM factory ammo accurately in a bind.

    If you are into using better brass, and a little more prep work, the 30-338 would be my choice. It will launch a 210JLK at about 3300 fps without any problems. The powder burns more efficiently, and as I mentioned the Lapua brass is much better. The Lapua brass is going to cost more but its well worth it. Usually when you load and fire these big cannons, the cost of brass isn't really too much of an issue.

    Just MHO, good luck with your choice,
    Frank D

    PS thanks Abinok, I still haven't had the time to load up the bullets you sent me. The Holiday rush has us very busy here!
     
  7. daveosok

    daveosok Guest

    With a 34 inch barrel behind 100 grains of H1000 we were getting 3600 fps with Berger's 190 grainers, 3300 with Berger's 210 same load, H50BMG netted 3100 fps behind 100 grains of H1000 launching the 210's.
    Now that Federal has come out with 300 rum brass the scales have equaled out a bit more and still cheaper to buy brass for versus the 338 Lapua brass.
    Case capacity was 115.5 grains of water to top of neck.
    Fire forming load was 50 grains of H1000 and pulled military bullets 170's something. Accuracy was surprising with the fire forming load and picking either the 300 Tomahawk or the 30-338 will net you a flat hard hitting caliber.
    We never tried the 240 smk the 190's accuracy was outstanding and flat and took deer at 647, 525, and 430 somehting yards.
    The gun would produce 1.7 inch 10 shot groups at 500 yards. Barrel length is a must for these large capacity cases to net the maximum performance.
    There is nothing wrong with either case but if you choose the 338 youll need to have the rem 700 bolt face opened up, feed rails opened up, and buy expensive brass but high quality brass.
    Federal's brass is heads and toes over Remington brass only wish Norma or Lapua made 300 rum brass then youd have the cats meow.

    Dave
     
  8. Iron Worker

    Iron Worker Well-Known Member

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    What do you need all that velocity for??????? I had a 300RUM and loaded it with 95grs of Retumbo. Yea I got my 3,200 out of it. Shot a Black bear at 100yds thru shoulder.Entered his left shoulder,blew out his right.Hanging from one paw from tree shot him again broke his back still hanging shot again this time he did a endo in the air falling 100'. My point eve n with all that speed still took three shots with a bunch of distroyed meat.
     
  9. Charles A

    Charles A Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    What do you need all that velocity for???????

    [/ QUOTE ]


    I would <u>assume</u> LR shooting. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  10. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    I would just really like a rifle with a custom barrel and have the receiver accurized. It would be my first. I also want to go a little bigger in case size so I could if needed shoot the heavier 240g SMK. However, I'm wondering if I need to go bigger then what I already have. I cant exactly out shoot my 300 RUM yet. It still has plenty of power out to 1000 yards. I would like to have the cartridge be 1500 yard or 1 mile target accuracy/capability while being able to hammer something at 1000 yards. The 7 tomahawk with the 176g is gettin me thinking a little bit. The brass seems to be the biggest part. If you guys were gettin 1.7 10 shot groups at 500 yards, I'd say thats not to bad. Really good. I would be happy with that for 3 shots. I am hoping to at least keep 3 shots in a paper plate at 1000 yards with no or little wind. I have told a couple local gunsmiths my plan, and they say its not really attainable with a hunting rifle because of all the variables.
     
  11. jwp475

    jwp475 Well-Known Member

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    I would say that it is possiable with a hunting weight rifle.My 300 win has a medium sporter weight barrel and I have shot 1" groups with it at 300 yards and I shot a group at 550 that went 3.875" with 2 touching and 3 into 1.75" My barrel is about.625 at the muzzle and is 28..875" long. A slightly larger diameter barrel would be advised on a 300 RUM,Tomahawk,etc.
     
  12. daveosok

    daveosok Guest

    JWP
    For all purposes a 5 inch group at 500 yards will suffice and is more than accurate enough to take game at 500 yards.
    A standard 300 rum loaded with 190~240 Berger and SMK will suffice in a 28 inch barrel.
    Bob Lingenfelter designed it with some help from Ray Romain and you can only get the Dies for the 300 tommy through Ray or possibly Bob. They have the rights to the dies through Redding.
    Theres not much difference between the 300 tommy and the 300 rum until you get into 30~34 inch and longer barrels then you can start to see what a few more grains will net you.
    Either one you pick will do what you need it to do. If you go to the 300 tommy then youll need to fire form which will subtract from your overall barrel life. If you can get your hands on a used 308 barrel and chamber it for the 300 tommy and fire off 100 or so rounds then switch to the real barrel youll save a lot of life.
    Dave
     
  13. Ringman

    Ringman Member

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    remingtonman_25_06,

    Although this info is not using the RUM case, it's an example of side by side comparison with ammo from the same box in two barrels. I have a 26" Savage which used to be a Swift; although I reamed it before firing it with a carbide .220 Extremist. The other was cut with the same reamer in a 30" PacNor. The case now uses about 48 grains behind Nolser's 55 Balistic tips. The 26" Savage averages 4,006 feet per second and the 30" PacNor averages 4,300 fps! If you want max speed, go long.
     
  14. remingtonman_25_06

    remingtonman_25_06 Well-Known Member

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    The more I think about it, the more I should just go with what I have, 300 RUM. I cant exactly outshoot it, so I really dont need bigger. I would like to keep the rifle down to around 11 lbs w/bipod. I would like to have a 28" barrel w/brake this time to spot my own shots. Maybe 3300fps is attainable with 200g bullets. It still looks like the 7mm AM would kick the 300 RUM's butt ballistically. Just dont know If I can really afford the extra money for dies/brass setup. I will already have to purchase a leica 1200 or swaro when I have this rifle built, so there is another $600. I will be sending my Rem 700 LSS off to Kirby, have him accurize and put a 28" Lilja with/holland brake. I want to have a little heavier contour then the factory, but I would like to continue using the laminated stock. So maybe sanding the channel might work. If not, I would eventually like to put a Mcmillan A-5. I would like to get a Jewell trigger, or something that allows down to 1.5lbs or so, with the safety still being able to work. Hopefully, the gun will shoot 200g AB's accurately for hunting. I would use the 200g or 220g SMK for targets/practice. I want to at least be able to keep 3 shots on paper plate at 1000 yards. So I should be able to hit big game size critter, depending on the variables. I would really like to see 6-8 inch groups at 1000 yards with a developed load. I would be putting a Leupold MK4 4.5-14x50 LR in the Leupold PRW rings and bases. I will have the rifle built by next elk season, I just dont know exactly when. Hopefully real soon.