300 Norma Mag

If you know how to manage carbon fouling and heat checking you can expect 900 good rounds out of the 300 Norma.
With no worse than 3/4 MOA accuracy at 1000 yards? I doubt that. 3/4 MOA's good accuracy at 1000 for me; that's what the long range benchresters get.

You mentioned on Sniper's Hide: 210's the other side 3150 FPs will work on a barrel so barrel life will be much shorter than a Win Mag. I would think barrel life will about 1500 rounds depending on cleaning regime. Accuracy will start to fade after 1100 rounds maybe sooner.

.308 Norma Mags and .30-.338 Win. Mags (same thing, different headstamp) got about 1200 rounds of 3/4 MOA at 1000 yards as a long range prone match rifle burning 65 or so grains of powder pushing 200 grain pills out somewhat over 2900 fps. And both were king of that hill for several years. The .300 Win. Mag playing the same game got about 1000 rounds shooting the same bullets out at about 3000 fps with about 69 grains of powder. I found one site online listing the .300 Norma Mag using almost 90 grains of powder under a 200 grain bullet. And that's why my prediction's at 700 absolute maximim with a bit of luck to hold 3/4 MOA at 1000 yards.

I knew two folks in the late 1960's trying the .300 Weatherby Mag as a long range prone match rifle. Both were only 1 MOA rifles at 1000 yards but then only for about 800 rounds. As far as I know, the .300 Norma Mag burns more powder than the .300 Weatherby Mag for a given bullet weight to produce more velocity with it.
 
Yea that's me on the Hide. I've been around awhile but if you knew guys in the 60's your about a decade older than I am. You can't compare the 60's to what we are doing today. Light years ahead in the knowledge department.
Don't know what your background is but I started in short range benchrest then moved on to 1k BR in '95. Been smithing since '83. Spent the last few years developing LR sniper rifle systems and developing some of these rounds. I was the first person to have 300 Norma cases in the country.
What's your background? My guess is High Power.

900 rounds 3/4MOA I think is very realistic since I would expect it to start out shooting much better than that. I want to say I shoot charges in the low 80's. I haven't done much more tha testing here lately. I know of a few people that have run the 300 Norma or a round very similar and say they have gotten 1200 rounds out of it before it really fell off. Maybe, maybe not but I've seen 300WN mags shooting 1/2MOA 10 shot groups the other side of 2500 rounds. 30's just seem to be more forgiving and seem to just fade away instead of falling on their face.
 
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I predict a .300 Norma Magnum barrel that starts out shooting 1/4 MOA at 100 yards and 3/4 MOA at 1000 yards will do that for no more than 600 rounds. Maybe 700 if one's lucky. That's a way, way over bore cartridge.

Case capacity in grains H20:
308 Norma Mag - 86.5
300 Win Mag - 93.8
300 Norma Mag - 103.0
300 Rem Ultra - 112.5
30-378 Wby - 133.0

I don't consider the 300 Norma or even the 300 Rem Ultra as severely overbore. Not like a 223 WSSM or a 264 Win Mag. Even a 30-378 Wby barrel can last a lifetime of occasional big game hunting. I wouldn't choose any of those as an "only rifle". Practicing with something smaller but with a similar trajectory makes sense.

The advantage of the 300 Norma over the 300 Rem Ultra is that it has enough room (1.1" magazine length minus case length) to shoot VLD bullets versus only 0.75" in factory rifles like a Rem 700. I don't own a 300 Norma Mag but I have a 338 Norma Mag which has about the same advantage over a 338 Rem Ultra.
 
You can't compare the 60's to what we are doing today. Light years ahead in the knowledge department. . . .What's your background? . . . . I've seen 300WN mags shooting 1/2MOA 10 shot groups the other side of 2500 rounds.
I sure can compare what happened in the '60's to what folks are doing today. 30 caliber rifle accuracy's changed little, if any, over the years. All the aggregate individual long range benchrest record groups shot are about 3/4 MOA at the big end; same accuracy one could count on all the time with the favorite 30 caliber mags back then. Those few-shot long-range record setters in or below the 2 inch range are mostly luck; but then luck's the big thing in benchrest.

Yes, my background's high power. But I shot 2 Xes shy of breaking a smallbore prone record a few years ago when I was beating the kids on the Olympic Team.

Are those 1/2 MOA 10-shot groups with over 2500 rounds the largest they shoot? My experience and observations convince me they're a once-in-a-while occasion.

Did you ever know an ex US Navy SEAL named R.J. Thomas?
 
Let's see the 60's; model 70's, one or two barrel makers, surplus 4831, "Match bullets" kind of a misnomer.

21st century; several excellent custom action makers, a multitude of high quality barrel makers, an unending list of propellants, match quality bullets like we have never had ( both factory and custom ), Oehler 43's, borescopes, meplat trimmers, pointing dies, high quality optics, etc.

Funny those same "LUCKY" people shoot very small groups over and over again through hard work, skill and yes there's a bit of luck when shooting at extreme distances. I think there's a bit of luck in all shooting disciplines don't you?

To my knowledge I've never met the gentleman.
 
Let's see the 60's; model 70's, one or two barrel makers, surplus 4831, "Match bullets" kind of a misnomer.
Dave, there appears to be a few things you need to be aware of.............

Winchester 70's with 30 caliber barrels have been shooting sub 1/2 MOA test groups at 600 yards and sub 3/4 MOA ones at 1000 yards since the late 1950's and early 1960's. They used IMR4064 in .308's and IMR4350 in Fred Huntington's .30-.338 Win. Mag. with Sierra's then new HPMK bullets that tested in the ones in Sierra's 100-yard test tunnel. Some of the test groups fired decades ago make current bench records look huge by comparison. Lapua bullets had one 10-shot 600-yard group in the American Rifleman in late 1971 pictured in their ad; it was 7/8 inch and just one of several in that range shot that day from a Hart barreled Winchester Model 70. Even well rebuilt 7.62 NATO M14NM's and M1's would shoot good lots of commercial match ammo inside 4 inches at 600 yards all day long back then.

When machine rests weren't available, top competitors would test their shoulder fired rifles prone resting the stock toe and fore end on sand bags. Rifles were held virtually wiggle-free; close to how free-recoiling benchrest ones were shot. Much better than even the best prone competitors could hold since the early 1900's. Top scoring ones would hold 5/8 to 3/4 MOA on paper then try to break their shots inside 3/8 or 1/2 MOA. As they have to go out of position to reload for long range matches, getting back into exactly the same position for each shot was and still is near impossible. Then add the inconsistant shoulder fired rifle holding and it's no wonder a 1/2 MOA (at worst) long range rifle shoots 1-1/2 MOA on paper for the most part. The 20-shot prone 600 and 1000 yard records on bullseye targets just fill the 1 MOA X ring.

Long range benchrest rifle 6- and 10-group aggregate records tell me things are no better these days; individual groups range from about 3/4 to 1/4 MOA. As far as I knoe, no single 5-shot record holder also holds a 6- or 10-group aggreate record; such is the odds of benchrest.

But give me a break; I'm a weirdo in high power rifle accuracy. To me, accuracy is what one can count on all the time; not that 1% of all groups fired that are at the tiniest dimesnion possible. Note that all benchrest few-shot record holders know that all their other groups are larger. They just don't tell us how much larger. There's just as many really tiny ones as there are really big ones.
 
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So let's see one 10 shot group at 600 yds. published in1971 in the American Rifleman is gospel. One test at Sierra in the tunnel out of a machine rest, probably shooting 168's- big deal.

Current IBS aggregate records, that means each group was shot in different conditions, different days over the course of a season. That tells me somebody made their own luck.

Light gun 5 shot groups

6 match 3.9007"
10 match 5.331"

Heavy gun 10 shot groups

6 match 5.2865"
10 match 6.0244"

I will concede the small group thing up to a point. It takes skill to get close time after time but then some luck is needed to shoot the really small groups.

"It was better in the good old days". That's BS. We have better everything including shooters irregardless of discipline today. **** I hate I missed the glory days.
 
Dave,Just as you posted.I have 2 friends that shoot 1000 bench,Penn. rules and work at it.They both have 2 current records,each and have broke their old records.One has 6agg.4.88 and 10 agg 5.89, the other 6 agg 99.5 and 10 agg96.8.The first has a stack of targets in the 2's,doesnt keep 3's.These are shot in ideal conditions at day break,like 5:30 am.I have watched him do it.His matches start at 9am due to rules,and there is always some wind. If his gun shot to the top high end of his groups,he told me he would saw it up and start over. He just built a heavy 6 dasher and shot a 100 at first match with it. The rifle will shoot tighter,it is not luck,and needs least wind for the dasher to excel .
 
So let's see one 10 shot group at 600 yds. published in1971 in the American Rifleman is gospel.
You forgot I mentioned he shot several others about the same size. Later that day, he put 40 shot inside 1.93 inches at 600 with the same ammo and rifle. But it's OK by me if you dismiss this or ho-hum it by other means.

One test at Sierra in the tunnel out of a machine rest, probably shooting 168's- big deal.
Wrong, but yes, it's a big deal. Sierra first ballistic was also a top level high power shooter. When he tested production runs of 30 caliber HPMK's, he had dozens of full length sized, primed and powder charged cases (metered, not weighed) ready to have bullets seated and shot from rail guns in their 100-yard test range in California. 168 and 180 HPMK's were tested in .308 Win. cases; 190 and 200 grain HPMK's were tested in 30 caliber belted magnum cases. As the cored jackets went through the final stage pointing machine, he would grab 10 of them, seat 'em in those cases then shoot them. When those 10-shot groups got down into the ones (indicating a very uniform lot of jacket material and very uniform jackets), he would move a special barrel under the pointing machine. As long as test groups were in the ones, those lanolin coated ugly bullets went into that barrel. When test groups went up into the twos and threes, he moved a production barrel under the pointing machine, scraped the top inch or so of bullets out of the special barrel then put them in the other one. That production barrel went to the rubber lined cement mixers full of wood chips where the lanolin was removed and bullets polished bright and shiny for packaging in green boxes.

Meanwhile, that special barrel's bullets would be packaged in 1000 round plain brown boxes, a blank shipping label affixed then in pencil the bullet weight and caliber would be written on the box top. Those bullets were shipped to two folks who sold them at high power matches to anybody for abot 10% less than what green boxes retailed for. They shot about 40% more accurate than those sold at retail in green boxes. I've still got some 180's, 190's and 200's in those brown boxes. Sierra quit this practice when they moved their plant to Missouri. I've tested them in my '60's era 30 caliber magnums with both full length sized and brand new cases getting 5-shot group averages around 3 to 4 inches and 20 or 30 shot test groups wel under 6 inches.

I was fortunate to get a couple 1000 bullet special boxes of 30 caliber 155's to help the US Palma Team develop loads for that bullet in 1991. I shot 20 of 'em into 3.2 inches at 800 yards. A friend grabbed 20 of 'em at random from a Dillon 1050 progressive loading them in brand new cases with metered charges of IMR4895 under bullets with runout of up to .004 inch then shot them into 2.7 inches at 600 yards with his ' 60's era pre '64 Win. 70 based rifle. I had the high aggreate score over 5 days shooting them in the first long range match in which that ammo was used by everyone. Group wise, over 95% of my shots stayed in the 600 yard 12-inch 10 ring and the 20 inch 10 ring at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. None were more than about 1.5 MOA away from center.

It's ok by me if you thumb your nose at this too.

Smart folks know that a long range benchrest aggregate record in the 5 and 6 inch range includes some groups larger than the average. Statistically speaking the big ones go up to about 50% larger. Realistically speaking, sometimes the biggest one is twice as large, but the smallest one has to be tiny to get the average well under tha biggest one. But benchresters don't like to discuss nor mention the biggest groups they shoot; doesn't matter that they happen just as often as the smallest ones.
 
You confirm everything I've been saying. I don't doubt what you say is true but back then you admit it was a special lot with some luck involved. Now there is a much higher level of expertise and consistancy in the manufacturing process of all the componets we use.
I very familiar with both Sierra and Hornady as I have worked with them on several projects. 1991 and Sierra, let see that was German guilding metal for the jackets. For a number of years there Sierra couldn't do anything wrong. That changed about '95 or so when they went to Olin for their raw stock. I do know a little something about the business.

You just don't get it so I'm done.
 
What twist rate would you recommend for the Berger 230's and the 300 Norma with a 26" barel, if the application were to be for ELR? Does a faster twist make a difference? If you have first hand knowledge, and are willing to share, I'd be most grateful.
 
1:10

For 190's and 200's, a 1:12 has been good in 28" barrels. But for a 26" barrel for hunting, a 1:10 would ensure good accuracy in very cold weather.
 
If you know how to manage carbon fouling and heat checking you can expect 900 good rounds out of the 300 Norma. The 30-375 is a better balanced round. By that I mean you get enough of a boost in velocity over the 300WM without increasing recoil much, as well as shortening barrel the life. It works with a .523 bolt face VS the need for a custom action for a 300 Norma. It works very well with heavy bullets. I've shot it out to 2K. With that being said there are no free lunches.

I was thinking that about the 30-375 Ruger though I do not have any personal experience with the round, just seems to me for the average guy (in budget) using a Model 700 action it would be a good way to go.
 
welp..i was wondering about this caliber a while ago and finally emailed Jimmie Sloan. He assures me that if the barrel is well taken care of the barrel should hold good accuracy from 2500-3000 rounds!!!...


Now.. I am no expert and I didnt design the cartridge... But similar cartridges in the same class get no where near that amount of barrel life. I have heard of the .300wsm getting 3000 rounds but I am sorry to have to disagree with mr. sloan. I doubt you would get 3000 rounds with the .338 norma. I was going to be excited if he told me that they were getting 1000 rounds down the tube before accuracy starts to fall off.
 
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