25-06AI case forming

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Old teacher, Feb 27, 2013.

  1. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    I have a Tikka 25-06 that I had improved. I am getting tired of paying for bullets to use in case forming loads. I have heard of guys who use a small charge of pistol powder, fill the case with cornmeal, and top it off with a wax plug and they get very good results. My question is, what powder and how much to use to case form for this caliber? I also need the same info for the .30 Gibbs, which is a much touchier process.


    Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
     
  2. Joel Russo

    Joel Russo Official LRH Sponsor

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    There is no need to go through all that trouble to fireform your brass to the improved version. It's simply a matter of conducting load development and fireforming at the same time. After you have developed a load that is acceptable to your accuracy standards, then confirm with once fired brass. You may want to think about annealing before you conduct your load development.
     

  3. elkaholic

    elkaholic Well-Known Member

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    Joel is correct when you are talking an A.I. because they headspace ok on the neck/shoulder junction. The Gibbs is another story. I would neck the case up to .338 and then back down to .30 just enough so that the bolt closes stiffly. In that particular cartridge, I would use about 12 grains of Red Dot or equivalent of other shotgun/pistol powder. Fill to the neck with cream of wheat and plug the neck with cotton, paper, wax or ?? Use ANY primer and fire away. The shoulder will still be a little rounded but they will shoot just fine and square up on the first full load. Another tip for both the A.I. and especially the Gibbs is to use 270W brass and you will end up with a much better neck. Here is another solution for your Gibbs! Rechamber to 300 Sherman and have the same velocity with a much better designed cartridge (especially the neck):D........Rich
     
  4. Joel Russo

    Joel Russo Official LRH Sponsor

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    Thanks Rich, I covered the AI, and forgot the Gibbs.lightbulb
     
  5. elkaholic

    elkaholic Well-Known Member

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    That's a minor thing, I'm getting to where I can barely remember to get dressed in the A.M.:D......Rich
     
  6. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    Joel and Rich: Thanks much for the info. I have fired normal 25-06 loads through my AI, but they do not group well until the case is properly formed. You can get an idea of which load will work best, but you need the case formed before you know how good your results will be. I started out using Winchester brass for the AI (don't ask me why, lol), but never got even one good case. Even if I annealed the case prior to forming, they all split in four places right on the shoulder regardless of the load. I checked with my local gunsmith and he told me to go to any other brass other than Winchester. I tried Remington and had no problems. I have since switched to either Nosler or Lapua brass for everything. I will concede that the Lapua brass is better, but I still prefer the Nosler.

    Rich: the method you describe for the .30 Gibbs is exactly what I do; neck them up to .338, then run them through the Gibbs full length sizer to create the false shoulder for them to headspace on. I tried just using a Gibbs neck sizer, but for some strange reason, they will not chamber. I have compared the two cases by measurement and by comparing them side by side under a microscope and I can find no difference, so that is a mystery. I anneal all the cases before I start, and I have never split a case. I appreciate your info on the pistol powder process. I will load a few of those and see what I get. Despite its kind of goofy look, I really like the .30 Gibbs. The rifle I used is a Remington titanium that I bought on an impulse. I got it the first year they produced them and mine has a serial number in the 60's. So the first thing I did was screw it up and cut off at least half the value. I wish I could leave stuff alone. It shoots very well considering it has a barrel the size of a fat ball point pen, and, in fact, I was using it when I made the longest shot of my life...837 yards. The bullet went right through the middle of the deer's heart, and no one was more astounded than me. I could never repeat that with any of my long range rifles, and most likely would not try anyway.
    Why would using 270 brass make a better case when it initially has to expand so much more than 30-06 brass, plus, despite popular belief, the 270 is not a necked down 30-06?

    I will check out the 30 Sherman. I have five or six 30-06's I could play around with.

    Thanks for the info on the Gibbs, but I still need a powder charge for the AI if you have it handy. Denny
     
  7. elkaholic

    elkaholic Well-Known Member

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    Denny.....The 270 brass is better because it is .046" longer than '06 brass! When you fire form a Gibbs, or even an A.I., you lose around .015" in length because you are swelling the body size and the brass has to move somewhere. Of course, it is ALWAYS the neck length that suffers. If you measure your brass length after firing, you will find it is far short of chamber specs. This means you are jumping the bullet accross a void between the end of the chamber (neck) before it reaches the throat. This does nothing for accuracy and can build up carbon in this "unused" neck area! I only trim my cases .005" short of chamber length for this reason, and you can easily be .020" or more short when forming a Gibbs or A.I. Using the .270 0r .280 brass will eliminate this problem. Hope this makes sense. As far as powder charge, you can use the same charge in the Gibbs as the A.I. ........rich
     
  8. elkaholic

    elkaholic Well-Known Member

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    Denny.....it just occurred to me that when you trim your formed 'o6 cases, you have to trim down to the shorter ones and there is always variation. When you form from a 270, you actually have some case length that HAS to be trimmed so you can end up with the exact same "correct" length for your chamber. Also, when you form the Gibbs case, you are using the same technique as I use for the Sherman, so why not chamber to a Sherman in your next one?:D I have the reamer and I even have a set of custom dies that I would consider selling.....Rich
     
  9. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    Rich: You are quite right about the case length. When I read your earlier answer, I checked my reloading manuals for case dimensions, and by the time I got from my gun room upstairs to my computer downstairs I apparently had a senior moment and got them switched, thinking the 270 was shorter. My humblest apologies for questioning your expertise. I knew my cases shortened when formed, but never thought about using another case. I appreciate the suggestion. My cases always end up the right length because they stretch when fired, but as you pointed out, damage is being done to the chamber and throat of the rifle while I am waiting for the case to get long enough. I agree with you on trimming the minimum. I also am, after extensive experimentation, a firm believer on seating bullets very close to the lands. I bought a Weatherby Mark V without doing my homework, and I have never been as disappointed in a rifle in my life. The action and the clip are so short that you are condemned to seating bullets very deeply to allow them to feed, plus the Weatherby has a long throat, so the bullet basically goes on vacation before it gets to the lands. It makes a pretty good single shot, but I would sell it cheaply to anybody who wanted it. I read an article about the Mark V and it talked about very heavy bullets actually bending before they can get out of the case since they had to be seated so deeply. That sounds a little whacked out to me, but that is what it said, true or not. Thanks for all the info; you have helped me in a number of areas. I appreciate your offer on the reamer and dies. I need to research the Sherman and see if it is something I want to get into. I have so many .30 calibers, from a .308 all the way up to a couple of Lazzeroni Warbirds that I don't know if I want to build another one. But I appreciate the suggestion. Many thanks. Denny
     
  10. elkaholic

    elkaholic Well-Known Member

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    Good luck Denny! Glad I was able to help a little.......rich
     
  11. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    Thanks again.


    I don't know if this is appropriate here, but I have been warning every site I go to watch out for a guy who sells guns and goes by the handle of Kiowadriver27. I bought a Sako M995 from him, and fortunately the gun was everything he said it was, but the deal was supposed to include a high end set of rings and two boxes of Lazzeroni ammo. He did not deliver on those even after multiple contacts. That was $400 worth of stuff. So if anyone who reads this is thinking about dealing with this guy, I would advise against it.

    Sorry if I have broken forum protocol, I just don't want this guy to screw anyone else.
     
  12. elkaholic

    elkaholic Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the headsup denny!
     
  13. Old teacher

    Old teacher Well-Known Member

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    You are welcome!