.243 AI Loading Question

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Greg Duerr, Mar 29, 2013.

  1. Greg Duerr

    Greg Duerr Well-Known Member

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    Im using H100V for my .243AI shooting the 95gr.Berger

    I started out with a load of 44.0, because on the back of the Powder can it showed a load for the .243 and the 100gr @43.7C However the berger book showed a max load of 41.0
    From 44.0 - 46.0 my groups were about 1.750 not until I got to 46.5 did they come down to .856, however I saw cratering on the primer and that shinny spot on the head of the case.

    Is that signs of hi pressure..........? Is that something to look at or is that doable?

    I cant seat my bullet out to touch the lands, is that normal for the berger or is it a chamber issue?

    Does one kind of powder make that much differance, I had some RL19 and had groups that were .596 However the same pressure signs were there.

    Are the recomended powders for the .243 acceptable in the Ackley ?

    This is all new to me ..................

    Is it important that you are able to seat your bullets out far enough to touch the lands?

    Greg
     
  2. ShowMeShooter

    ShowMeShooter Well-Known Member

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    hope that helps some. good luckgun)
     

  3. westcliffe01

    westcliffe01 Well-Known Member

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    I started out with a load of 44.0, because on the back of the Powder can it showed a load for the .243 and the 100gr @43.7C However the berger book showed a max load of 41.0
    The loads apply to the 243 Win, not the 243AI. Generally it is expected that one can get about 10% more powder into an AI so 41+4.1 = 45.1 is roughly what you should expect (in fireformed brass) for a max load.

    I cant seat my bullet out to touch the lands, is that normal for the berger or is it a chamber issue?
    You don't say why that is ? Does it not fit into the magazine or would not enough bullet be engaged in the case ? The latter sounds rather unlikely to me ? Perhaps you need a longer magazine or go to single shot to get the advantage of being able to seat the bullet longer ? That will reduce pressure and increase the max load. Having said that, I am loading the 95gr Bergers to the 2.71" overall length and shooting 0.5" at 100 yards while fireforming the brass with a 41gr load. I have yet to load into the formed brass, but all of those loads will be with 105gr bullets in my case, not 95gr.

    Have you done everything you can to improve your base rifle ? Bed the action, ensure barrel is free floated etc etc ? No point in blowing up your rifle with max loads when all the mechanical aspects are not yet perfect. The heavier the load, the more perfect the bedding etc needs to be to allow the rifle to group well.
     
  4. Greg Duerr

    Greg Duerr Well-Known Member

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    Im using the sinclair bullet seating depth tool....................according to that I can not seat my bullets out to touch the rifleing as the bullet will have just a little hold from the neck.
    My rifle is a custom from Carolina Precision Rifles, "John Lewis" Your right about the load of 46.5 Lots of pressure sighs but anything less than that using H100V and my groups are .8 to .9 Not good enough for me....................Like I said all this is new to me and what im learning is that .................next time NO improved Cartridges. If I had to do it over it would have been the 6mmXC......To much time waisted fireforming.............................and for what it cost me to have CPR do my rifle .................I would have bought a Cooper and saved my self a lot.......................

    I was looking at the Berger reloading Manual and it showed that with the 95gr berger you can use H1000 powder.........................I thought that powder was for big Magnum cases.....................??

    I did get good group with RL 19 but that powder is no were to be found.....right now. Along with all the otheres I would lilke to try..................It would be helpful if I was working up a load with either H4350, H4831, h414 N160 etc.........................I dont like using powders that have no history to them................................


    Greg
     
  5. westcliffe01

    westcliffe01 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps you should try 105's if your throat is so long ? A too long throat is always a problem shooting lighter bullets. For 99% of us we have the opposite problem, a short throat that prevents loading the bullet "long".

    David Tubb seats his bullets past the lands and they jet jammed (shortened) when chambering. He seems dead set on having the bullet engage the rifling, thats for sure.

    Have you tried one loaded at max feasible length to see if in fact the bullet has marks on it and a reduced COAL after chambering ? Those tools do not always work correctly for VLD's. Thats what Berger says in their reloading manual.

    You would for sure want to reduce the load before trying to fire any in that configuration since jammed bullets raise pressure.
     
  6. Greg Duerr

    Greg Duerr Well-Known Member

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    I was able to seat the Hornady 100 gr spire points into the lands for fireforming the .243 Lapua brass...................

    I did buy some 105 gr A max that I have not tried.....................I could try those.

    Can you shoot the Sierra 107's out of a 1x9 twist.......................Im realizing just haw much I did not know before ordering this rifle.................

    Right now that only powder I have is the H100V and some H1000

    I will take your advice and load up some 105's..........................So far any accuracy I have received was with High Prssure loads. When I had some RL19 I was shooting 48.5 with the 95 and with hight pressure signs. My son used that load to take his first black bear at 211 yards...................Dead when he hit the ground..............

    Greg
     
  7. westcliffe01

    westcliffe01 Well-Known Member

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    I see the problem... Your 9 twist is providing marginal stability with the 95's. I had an original 26" 9.25 twist barrel and my groupings with the 95gr VLD's were pretty awful (1-2"). So you have a "true" 1:9 and your grouping has been a little better, but you have to shoot them with basically a max load to spin them fast enough to stabilize. Then combined with a long throat in a barrel that can basically never shoot heavy VLD's ? Mine (1:8x26") is now grouping 1/2" at 100 with fireforming loads (41gr H100V) and I have back calculated the MV as 3400fps, based on a 6" drop from 100 to 285 yards. I have not yet started loading in the fireformed cases, but did get a batch of 105gr VLD's this last week that I will be loading up.

    Quit while you are ahead and get yourself an 8 twist barrel with a "normal" throat. Mine is a Shilen. I don't know how your action is set up - Remington type Tenon ?

    The 243 Win is a popular caliber so Jim at NSS will probably have a batch of barrels coming in in a few weeks. He has a version that is made with a barrel nut for the Remington type action. Installing it requires no gunsmithing and just a $30 go gauge. They should be $~320. You will probably recover some money by selling the original barrel to someone shooting varmint bullets at 4000fps, for which it will be fine.
     
  8. Greg Duerr

    Greg Duerr Well-Known Member

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    I was told by the Smith that a 1x9 would work with the 95gr.......................The long throut, is that normal. It has a Pac Nor Super Match barrel on it...................I might have to go to another bullet .................maybe like the 95gr Nosler Accu bond..................Im game on the smaller bullets what ever would work....................In my old Rem 700 the Barnes 80gr TSX's sure shot good...............
    My intent was to use this rifle for mostly Varmints and when I get a tag for Deer and Black Bear.........................Do you think that the longer bearing surface bullets would be able to be seated out far enough to touch the rifling......??

    I guess I should have done a lot more information gathering before I ordered this rifle.............................
    in your opinion what would work best for what I inted to use it for ..................??
    G
     
  9. westcliffe01

    westcliffe01 Well-Known Member

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    Your problem is primarily going to be with VLD's. "ordinary" bullets should be less of a problem. But you need to get the throat question sorted out. Having an excessively long throat is the same thing as having a shot out barrel.

    What your options are depend a lot on your barrel tennon ? Is yours a Remington type action, or a savage style ?

    The only way to fix the throat, if it is as long as you say, is to have the barrel set back. It is a question of how much. I believe that the AI chamber I have has a Sami style neck and throat, that is probably the way most 243 AI's are made. The only time one expects anything different is for a custom job where someone wants to shoot 115's and specifically requests a lengthened throat.

    The throat dimension could very well preclude you shooting lighter bullets accurately and may be part of the current problem too.

    I would be having a word with the rifle builder to see what they were thinking putting a long throat on a 1:9 twist barrel which cannot shoot the heavy and long VLD's in the first place. On the 115's a 7.5 twist is generally recommended.

    If possible send back the rifle and have them set back the barrel and give you a regular throat dimension to Sami spec.

    Otherwise, get the 8 twist as I recommended and it will be a good long range gun (look at the bullet energy and velocity to guide you in what size animal you should be shooting at what distance). It will then shot the 95's and 105's well without needing max loads. Right now I see no benefit to 115's since the BC is nearly the same as the 105's. The hybrid 105's have been sold out everywhere, but I will get some at the first opportunity. They are apparently less critical of the exact "jump" to the lands.
     
  10. Greg Duerr

    Greg Duerr Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for all the help.....................................I will ask the Smith and see what he says but would have it done by someone else.........................His lag time was off by over 6 months from what he told me.

    The barrel is on a Rem 700 action...............................

    Do you have anyone your would recomend??
     
  11. westcliffe01

    westcliffe01 Well-Known Member

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    Your fastest and least expensive solution will be a new 1:8 Barrel with Savage style nut. Otherwise you will pay more in gunsmith fees to have the barrel set back than a new barrel with a more suitable twist rate in the first place. Then send the old barrel back to the company you bought it from, and have them correct the chamber for free. When you get it back, sell it to recoup some of your losses.

    The new barrel should have you operational in less than a month. Jim has all the tools you need to fit the new barrel except the go gauge (mansonreamers.com has those in stock $30 each)

    Northland Shooter Supply
    Call Jim Briggs
    Phone - 763/682-4296 - BEST WAY TO CONTACT ME
    Fax - 763/682-6098
    Mailing address:
    PO Box 333
    Buffalo, MN 55313
     
  12. TOM H

    TOM H Well-Known Member

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    Surprised your having all those problems? I remember your early post about the 243AI figured you had everything settled that was back in 2011.

    http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f26/243-ackley-70421/index3.html
     
  13. Greg Duerr

    Greg Duerr Well-Known Member

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    Well being new to this level of shooting has been a huge learing experiance............Up to now my long shots have been around 200yards, so accuracey was something I did not pay much attention to. I did buy from the help from guys on this sight, a Leica 1200 RF.................Wow, was that a learning experiance, Had no Idea just how far 400 yards was , let alone the distances you guys shoot at.................unbelievable.
    Things might be different with my new Rifle if I had the right powders avaiable. All I now right now is that I can not seat a 95gr Berger out far enough to touch the lands...............Had no idea that was a problem. The other thing is that I have not been able to get any resonable accuracy out of it. .597 with RL19 but at 48.5 gr was in the high pressure............Moon cratered firing pin holes and the shinny spot from the extractor. Using H100V nothing under .8 from start to high pressure...............I did read that H1000 is a great powder for the .243 should work good in the .243AI. I do have some 105 A-Max I bought that will work with the 1x9 I would like to see something that would tell me im heading in the right direction.
    I emailed Darrel Holland and you told me to call John Lewis from CPR who built my rifle and ask for the reamer print................that would tell me what the throut length was...........Ive learned a lot, so far probable would have done it different .........at this point I would be happy with any groups at .5

    Greg
     
  14. TOM H

    TOM H Well-Known Member

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    Greg, I think Berger only makes two 6mm 95gr bullets for the 1/9 twist barrels and I'm not sure what he had on his site couple years ago.


    If your not getting what you want maybe time for a change or put rifle away till you can get other powders if that what you thing will help.