.224 Vais vs. 6/284

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Naymola, Jan 22, 2006.

  1. Naymola

    Naymola Well-Known Member

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    Howdy fella's,
    I want to set up a Rock chuck rig for mid-range work.
    Will be using a 28" barrell.# 5 countour for a carry gun.
    The .224 Vais using a 75 grain A-Max has a BC of .430 at 3700 fps.The 6/284 using a 70 grain Ballistic tip has a BC of .310,at about the same velocity .To near the BC of the 75 grain A-Max,the 87 grain V-Max at a BC of .400 would be pretty close but with a reduced velocity of 200-300 fps?Is there a better choice between these two calibers?If it's a toss up,I'd go with the Vais because I already have the dies.Thanks for your time,Gary
     
  2. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Millerlite,

    Have you actually been able to get the 75 gr A-Max over 3500 fps accurtely? Just curious as these tend to be pretty quick to come apart in flight at high velocities. Most rifles I have tested the A-Max bullets in top out around 3300 fps with their best accuracy.

    This is also with Lilja 3 groove barrels though. With conventional 6 groove rifling you can often get more out of them velocity wise.

    Still, the A-Max loaded to 3700 fps would be something to see if it was accurate!!

    The 6-284 will easily top 3700 fps in a 28" barrel. The ones I have built are mainly on 30" pipes which will easily break 4K with top loads with this bullet. In a 28" pipe you are looking at +3850 fps potential on average from my experience with top loads. This bullet will take any velocity you can though at it so there is generally no accuracy decrease with top velocities.

    Personally I would go with the 6-284 but design it for the heavier 90 to 107 gr VLD or ULD bullet designs. Velocity will drop to the 3400-3450 fps range but down range consistancy as far as windage is gererally improved.

    This all depends on what you feel is medium range shooting. If your talking 500 yards, both rounds are acutally much more then you need. If your talking 1/2 mile, then I would lean toward the big 6mm. If your looking at 1000 and beyond which some do consider medium range(not me!!) then the big 6mm would be my only choice.

    Ease of loading is also a consideration as the 6-284 is very easy to load for. But you have the Vias dies so that is a cost you would not have to pay for.

    Personally, I would go with the big 6mm of the two choices to pick from.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     

  3. Naymola

    Naymola Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your input Kirby.
    I have a Vais set up with a 27",14 twist,using 50 NBT bullets in it,wanted a point and shoot gun for coyotes and I sure got it.I am entertaining the idea of making it a switch barrell gun with a 8 or 9 twist for the 75's or even 80 grain VLD's for 500 yard work.I can't confirm the velocity of 3700 fps, as that comes from a friend of mine.It may be a little suspect after reading your post,but he loads most everything to the limit.Perhaps it's best to keep the gun all Vais and build a full on 6/284 down the road.......What are your thoughts comparing the 6/284 to a 6mm/06,is there a better of the two?Thanks again,Gary
     
  4. hvyw8t

    hvyw8t Well-Known Member

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    I own both the 6mm-06 and 6mm-284 both built by Kirby. Case capacity between the two is almost a coin toss with the 6mm-06 having about a 1 grain advantage. I like the fact that i can get high quality brass for the 6mm-284 . Both are awesome performers. If i was building a bench rest style rifle i would choose the 6-284 if i was building a walking varminter i would look at the 6mm-06 as it feeds better than the 6-284. Both are very easy to load for and both are incredibly accurate averaging groups in the .2s and .3s. Although the man that built them should get the credit for that!
     
  5. Northman

    Northman Well-Known Member

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    6-06 AI ? Should get more out of it.

    And laupa brass for both of them.. not sure wich one I would choose.
     
  6. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Norhman,

    The 6-06 AI is a hell of a round. But, it is does have its problems. Mainly, it works best with the really heavy 6mm bullets. Only problem there is that most of the heavy 6mm bullets are designed for 243 class velocity.

    You can also get into some powder bridging issues with some stick powders in the 6-06 AI with its sharp shoulder.

    If I were to build a big 6mm with tese three to choose from, I would lean in the same direction as Hvyw8t and choose the 284 version for a heavy rifle and the 6-06 for walking varmint or sporter weight rifle for its feeding characteristics.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  7. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Millerlite,

    I will echo what Hvyw8t has already mentioned. Of the two its hard to tell or say one is better then the other. Really it comes down to the type of rifle you want to build.

    If your going with a heavy single shot, I would go with the 284 version because its shorter, allowing a shorter rifle length and more usible barrel for a given barrel length over the 06.

    That said, the 284 is always a bit choppy feeding, just the way it is even if the receiver is set up properly for the round.

    On the other hand, the 06 feeds like a dream but brass quality is generally not what the 284 is.

    Performance, its a toss up really.

    As far as user friendliness on the bench. Both are easy to make, espeically now that you can get 6.5-284 match cases. In the 06 you simply get 25-06 cases if you want the least amount of work on the bench. Both of these cases are one step neck down operations to 6mm. Both use the same burn rate powders and bullet weights as well.

    Again, it really comed down to the type of rifle you want. Sporter/repeater I would say 06. Single shot heavy I would say 284.

    In either case I would recommend a 1-9 twist 6 groove barrel if you will be shooting the thin jacketed 105 gr class bullets. If you want to shoot the 107 gr Sierra MK then the 3 groove will work but currently I do not think Lilja offers this twist in 3 groove. Others may though.

    3 groove barrels can be harder on thin jacketed match bullets at high velocity.

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  8. Northman

    Northman Well-Known Member

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    A question by the way.. how fast would a 224 Vais shoot the 100 and 107 grain wildcat bullets?

    Im having troubles finding numbers for this caliber.
     
  9. Naymola

    Naymola Well-Known Member

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    Gentlemen,again,thanks for your input.
    Norhman,I have never found any printed load data for the .224 Vais,I had to go right to the source and that was Ron at Vais muzzle brakes.I eventually found someone who is very up on the Vais and shoots it allot,mostly with 80 grain SMK.He also shoots a 6mm Vais and likes it allot,can't recall what velocity's he was getting with it,it's been awhile since I've talked to him.He is someone other than 3700 fps guy.I have connected with maybe 3-4 guys who load for it.Gary
     
  10. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Norhman,

    Not sure, I have tested the 100 gr ULD RBBT in a 30" barreled 22-6mm AI and got around 3150 fps. Topped 3200 fps but case life would be quite limited.

    My 224 AM has hit 3425 fps with tight primer pockets but had other issues with case design, so not sure if this is an accurate representation of what the round will really do. Pressure wise it was fine.

    I am not sure where the 224 Vias lands compared to these two in capacity. My AM holds up to 73.0 gr WC872 so you can use that as a comparision on the Vias. I suspect the 22-6mm AI is very similiar to the Vias in capacity but not sure.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  11. brianwinzor

    brianwinzor Well-Known Member

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    Millerlite, There is an article (King of the Deuces) on the .224 Vais in the April 1998 edition of Precision Shooting, by L D Standish. I have selected several quotes from that article:

    "To be dubbed the .224 Vais (what else?), the new cartridge was to be a necked-down, blown-out 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser with a 35 degree shoulder, for which there is a plentiful supply of brass. "

    "What if I told you I have a .22 that makes a .220 Swift look like a defective mortar, and leaves a .224 Clark standing in the dust?

    "What if I told you it would even equal or better the 6-.284's statistics, and the brass is available from all the major suppliers, including Norma, Lapua, Winchester, RWS, and Remington? "

    The test was with the JLK 80 grain VLD and using RE22, but no loads were mentioned, but this quote caught my attention:
    "With the barrel broken in and load testing and tuning complete, the .224 Vais is consistently turning in groups mostly averaging in the low to mid 2's at a measured average velocity of 3,773 fps (10 feet from the muzzle). "

    There are a lot of statements in the article that are open to challenge, and I note that in the .224 Vais he is getting 3,773 fps with the 80 grain JLK in a 30 inch barrel, while in the .224 Clark, I got about 3730 fps with the 80 grain Sierra MK in a 25.25 inch barrel. Yet he claims the .224 Vais leaves the "Clark" in its dust.

    As both the 224 Clark and 22/6mmAI, have the 7x57mm mauser case as the parent, you would expect them to have a marginally larger case capacity than the 224 Vais which is based on the 6.5x55mm Swedish case.

    I also agree with Kirby regarding trying to exceed about 3,500 fps with the 75 Amax. I can recall many reports that they have come apart at velocities between 3,600 and 3,800, and especially when using a 1 in 8 twist. A velocity of 3,500 - 3,600 fps can easily be achieved by using the smaller capacity 22/6mm (unimproved)case.

    Personally if I was using a case with the capacity of the .224 Vais, I would concentrate on using bullets in the 80 - 100 grain range, but this would require using a 1 in 7 twist barrel. Hope that the above helps. Brian.
     
  12. uncleB

    uncleB Well-Known Member

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    I had the most incredible reply for LDStandish ,but then I read the post(yet again) LEN's Living Room and laughed it off so I can reply again tomorrow.
    UB
     
  13. Naymola

    Naymola Well-Known Member

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    Brian,that same article is on the Vais Arms website.I'm with you, being suspect on those velocities.I'm going to set up my switch barrel as a .224 Vais with a 8 twist for the 75 and 80 grainers.If it'll consistantly whack Chucks in the 400-500 yard range ,I'd be happy at whatever velocity it did.However,I can attest, that my Vais with 50 grain NBT's is doing 4350 fps and will squeeze a bit more if I really pushed it.Won't have the 8 twist set up for Chucks this season,but am planning to use as is.Hell,maybe I'll find with that velocity and trajectory ,I would'nt need anything else,we shall see.I've only used it on Coyotes so far.Gary