.224 custom 100 grain ULD's for 1000 and 500yrd benchrest

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by reed mosser, Feb 24, 2005.

  1. reed mosser

    reed mosser Well-Known Member

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    .224 custom 100 grain ULD\'s for 1000 and 500yrd benchrest

    I talked to Richard at wildcat bullets about purchasing some ULD 22 bullets. And he was saying if there was a demand he would make some 100 grain 224 bullets. I love the 22's for the lack of recoil and that they are a pleasure to shoot. The 80's do ok but I figure a bullet with a B>C in the at least .650 and up guessing would be a great help at 1000. The only problem i see is haveing a barrel with that fast of a twist. I think it would need a 1-6 or 6.5 twist to stablize these long heavy bullets. I have had problems with bullets blowing up in fast twist .224's. Richard said his bullets were tough enough to take the twist and speed. I was thinking of a 22-243 with 35 degree shoulder. I think it would drive the 100gr at around 3000 to 3100 no problem. I already have one with a 8 twist and love it. I was just throwing the idea out to see if it was a fesible reality. I love little guns and want every advantage i can get at long range. Hart and pac-nor make 1-6 twist barrels. I don't know what twist it would take to stablize but know with 90 gr JLK it takes a 1-7 so I guess a 1-6 would work for 100 grain. I would appreciat any info as I not the most knowledgeable long range shooter. Thanks Reed
     

  2. speedbump

    speedbump Well-Known Member

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    Re: .224 custom 100 grain ULD\'s for 1000 and 500yrd benchrest

    Reed, I believe the military 1,000 yard service rifle shooters use 1:6.5" barrels for the 90s. They still get blown around, but it's neat to watch - in a sadistic kind of way! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     

  3. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    Re: .224 custom 100 grain ULD\'s for 1000 and 500yrd benchrest

    If you can get the dimensions of these things, I can calc BC. You covered pretty well, the barriers associated with such extremes. Stability -vs- Jacket integrity. The slightest twitch in a 22-243 load, or shooting conditions, will put you on the Edge.
    The bullet would stand a better chance of success with a mildly improved 22br(~42grH20cap), around 2850-2900fps.
    It's one of those lonely areas you pioneer yourself. If, you have a good smith close to finish barrels quick, try it. Let us know.
     
  4. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Re: .224 custom 100 grain ULD\'s for 1000 and 500yrd benchrest

    Reed Mosser,

    Are these Wildcat ULDs flat based or Rebated Boattails. I know this goes against everything most here believe as far as extreme range shooting but Richards ULD Flat Base bullets generally offer higher B.C. values then most conventional VLD bullets. Plus they are not extremely long.

    Richard Generally has a pretty good idea what twist would be needed for these bullets. I do not know for sure but it would suprise me if a 1-7 would not stabilize these bullets if you get the velocity in the 3000 fps or above range.

    I would talk with Richard first and see if he can get you a projected twist needed for these bullets.

    The bullets Richard has designed for my Allen Mags have been simply amazing and I suspect you would be nothing but totally satisfied with these big 224 bullets.

    It was stated earlier, it can be a lonely road pushing the performance envelope farther out. Well, its lonely until you make it work and then everyone and their dog will be with you.

    Good luck and have fun doing it!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  5. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    Re: .224 custom 100 grain ULD\'s for 1000 and 500yrd benchrest

    What we need is a new way to make bullets. new materials, etc. With the jackets/core tech we have, the ability to make 'strong' High BC bullets in small calibres seems to have reach a point of diminishing returns.

    The idea of a 100gr 22cal bullet with a BC over 0.65 would be absolutely wonderful. It would make many shooter reasses the 1000yd game. Unfortunately, I don't know if this bullet could reach 3000fps. Go Richard Go.

    Apparently the 90gr JLK's are having distortion issues at higher velocities.

    Might be easier to work on a 6mm or 25 cal bullet with BC approaching 0.7+.

    I hope there is some enterprising materials engineer and machinists who can come up with the bullet which can propel this sport to the next level.

    Jerry
     
  6. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Re: .224 custom 100 grain ULD\'s for 1000 and 500yrd benchrest

    Probably one of the best and most respected ballistics gurus around is Henry Childs (HBC) on BR central. Goes by HBC.

    He would be my first choice on something like this.

    You can send him a PM with all the bullet specs and let him run the calcs for you. I am sure he will have followup questions so exact bullet dimensions will be needed.

    BH
     
  7. brianwinzor

    brianwinzor Well-Known Member

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    Re: .224 custom 100 grain ULD\'s for 1000 and 500yrd benchrest

    Reed, I agree that sourcing and then getting a 100 grain ULD to work would certainly be an interesting challenge. I agree that one of the biggest problems is to co-ordinate the barrel twist with the rpm's the bullet jacket can withstand.

    I believe that a 1 in 6.5 twist would stabilise the 100 grain Wildcat RBULD at 3100 - 3200 fps but that a 1 in 7 twist may be marginal at that velocity.

    I am not familiar with the number of shots fired in a given time in 500 an 1000 yard benchrest match. However, my biggest concern would be the rate of fire, and as you would have already discovered with you 22/243 AI, 3 shots in 3 minutes and your barrel is hot. So if you have to fire at that pace, then I suggest that you use a much smaller case.

    I am also a devotee of the "big 22's", and since 1972 have owned a 22/250, 22/250AI, 220 Swift, 220 Swift AI, 22/284, and about to build up another .224 Clark.

    Richard Graves forwarded to me by surface mail his 80 and 85 grain RBULD's about 10 days ago, but it will be another 4 weeks or thereabouts before I get them here in "Oz". I originally ordered some ULD's of 85 grains and whatever was the heaviest his dies and jackets could produce, but after some experimenting he found that 85 grains was the limit.

    Richard also mentioned that he could make some 90 and 100 grain 10 ogive flat base HP's, and I asked him to send me some in the next shipment with the 125 grain 257 ULD's, and I would try them. He thought that the Krieger 26 inch 1 in 7 twist barrel which I will be ordering this week should stabilise both his 85 grain ULD and the 90 and 100 grain flat base 10 ogive HP.

    I will base the rifle around the 80 grain Sierra HPBT as I still have 450 left, and several others have reported that they shoot accurately and hold together well in a 1 in 7 twist barrel at 3600+ fps. I will experiment with the bullet weights of 85+ grains and see what happens.

    I discovered in my first .224 Clark, that the Rem 700 short action magazine box length of 2.800 is too short, so I now have to find a second hand Rem 700 BDL rifle in 270, 280, etc to source the action for .224 Clark (number 2).

    My first 224 Clark achieved 3730 fps with the 80 grain Sierra in a 25.25 inch barrel, so this time around, I estimate that the 85 grain ULD should get around 3650 fps, and with the 90 grain JLK or Wildcat FBHP around 3550 fps, and 100 grain FBHP about 3,350fps.

    Several years ago, I emailed Corbins regarding making 80 - 90 grain ULD's, and Dave Corbin when replying said " You would need to draw down a .257 jacket to .224 for a 90 grain weight. It works rather well. We have made many sets of these recently, as the current trend leans toward exactly what you ask about."

    I would be interested to hear how your project progresses. Regards, Brian.
     
  8. Waltech Jim

    Waltech Jim Writers Guild

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    Re: .224 custom 100 grain ULD\'s for 1000 and 500yrd benchrest

    Brian,

    Well, I have never been one to hide my ignorance, (at least that is what everyone tells me). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Could you please tell me what a .224 Clark is?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    Thanks,

    Jim
     
  9. brianwinzor

    brianwinzor Well-Known Member

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    Re: .224 custom 100 grain ULD\'s for 1000 and 500yrd benchrest

    Waltech Jim,

    The 224 Clark is named after Ken Clark a Californian gunsmith who developed the case in 1962, afer previously experimenting with a variety of cases including a necked down 30/06.

    The .224 Clark case is formed by necking down a .257 Roberts case to .224, and then fireforming in an improved chamber, with a 30 degree shoulder.

    There is an excellent article by Layne Simpson on the .224 Clark in the Sept-Oct 1979 edition of the "Rifle".

    In the article he states that Ken Clark " tried a variety of case forms, powders, bullet weights, and bullet shapes, and finally eliminated his problems with the cartridge. The toughest to overcome was the rapid barrel erosion, virtually inevitable with the burning of around 60 grains of powder in a .224 barrel. Clark's first solution was to use ball powders in a chromed bore. He now uses Shilen Chrome Moly barrels, and says that barrel life is on par with that of the 22/250 and .220 Swift."

    Ken Clark told Simpson "that cases for the 6mm Remington cases could be used, but he found that they do not take loads as heavy as the Winchester 257 cases."

    The case capacity of my first batch of Winchester .257 Roberts cases had a capacity of 58.1 grains after necking down to .224, and 63.8 grains after fireforming. (almost identical to a 22/284 I previously owned) The second batch of Winchester 257R brass were 57.1 grains when necked down, and 62.3 grains after fireforming. The usable capacity when filled with powder to the base of the neck is 55.0 grains of a long cut extruded powder such as IMR 7828, 56.5 grains of short cut extruded powder such as H1000, and 60.8 grains of ball powder.

    The neck on my gunsmith's reamer measures .2543, which means I have to neck turn the cases to about .014 thickness to give adequate clearance.

    Hope that gives you a little technical snapshot of the .224 Clark. Regards, Brian.
     
  10. reed mosser

    reed mosser Well-Known Member

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    Re: .224 custom 100 grain ULD\'s for 1000 and 500yrd benchrest

    The 500 yard groundhog shoots we shoot 5 shots in 6 minutes. I havent really had any problems with my heavy barrel 22-243 imp overheating in 5 shots. It doesn't seem much worse than my 22-250ACK. I shoot 47.0 IMR 7828 at around 3600 fps in my 27 inch barrel with the 80 sierra's. I havent really tried any other bullets because from experience I know most won't make to the target. I am going to try richards 85 in that 8 twist barrel and see how they work. If he does make the 100's I am going to chamber a barrel for them either a 22 br or 22-243imp. For 500 yard work I know the BR will do great but at a 1000 its a little short on fire power. I love both cases /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif so its a toss up for me. I am going to talk to richard and see when or if he is going to make the 100 grainers and if he does and will find out what twist is needed and give it a try. I think he said the 100 grainer will be a flat based bullet. The worst thing I could do is fail . No pain no gain
     
  11. brianwinzor

    brianwinzor Well-Known Member

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    Re: .224 custom 100 grain ULD\'s for 1000 and 500yrd benchrest

    Reed, If you believe that firing five shots in 6 minutes would not overheat the 22/243 imp then I would stick with it, and not go to the smaller case. You mentioned that it is a 27 inch heavy barrel, and am curious what is the diameter at the muzzle?

    I agree that there would not be much difference in barrel heat between your 22/243AI and 22/250 AI. You mentioned that you are using a load of 47 grains IMR 7828 with the 80 Sierra in the 22/243AI, and from my experience that would only be about 1 - 3 grains more than you would be using in the 22/250 AI.

    I am currently using 46.0 grains Winchester WMR (ball powder) in my 22/250 Imp (28) behind the 69 grain Sierra, for 3430 fps out of a Shilen 24.5 inch 1 in 10 twist barrel that is .765 at the muzzle. I previously used the same barrel for 1600 shots with the 224 Clark, and achieved about 3,930 fps with the same bullet, using 54.5 grains IMR 7828.

    However, although IMR 7828 gave either the highest or second highest velocities in my 224 Clark with the 60 - 80 grain bullet weights, I found that it was temperature sensitive, and the odd shot gave unpredictable pressure spikes, and have had similar experiences with this powder in a 220 Swift AI, and 25/06 AI.

    Although many of the ball powders are temperature sensitive, where possible I use one for my field loads to try and limit throat erosion. Luckily in the 224 Clark, 54.0 grains WW785 gave good accuracy and a velocity of about 3850 fps.

    I admire you "no pain no gain" approach with the 100 grain RBULD, which I agree would be terrific to use if it can be made to work. However, I must be a little more practical and would never build up a rifle around just one bullet. If for some reason the 100 grain RBULD would not shoot accurately, then the obvious "fall back" bullet is the 80 grain Sierra HPBT. However, in my .224 Clark at 3,700 fps if using a 1 in 6.5 twist it would be fairly whizzing at 409,846 rpm, and obviously under considerable stress.

    Perhaps I should go and buy a skirt for suggesting this, but had you considered using a 95 grain RBULD instead of the 100 grain ULD. I believe it would still have a BC of over .600, and should have an excellent chance of being stabilised in a 1 in 7 twist barrel, and we already know that 80 grain Sierra and 90 grain JLK will work with that twist.

    You can tell Richard that if he does decide to make some up 95 grain RBULD's then I would buy at least 500 to help shore up the initial order.

    Richard mentioned to me on a recent phone call, that he can make up some 90 and 100 grain flat base 10 ogive hollow points. He said that they should be an excellent hunting bullet as they would have a .030 jacket and tight meplat, which would enable them to hold together and penetrate well. I told him that I would buy some, and send me some in his next shipment to me. Regards, Brian.
     
  12. reed mosser

    reed mosser Well-Known Member

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    Re: .224 custom 100 grain ULD\'s for 1000 and 500yrd benchrest

    My 22-243 imp barrel is .860 at the muzzle . My 22-243 imp will shoot with 48.0 of 7828. And my last 22-250 ack would hold max of 44.0 7828. I have only ever shot feder gold match mage primers in both the ack and 22-243. In my 22-250 ack I had with 28 inch barrel with 44.0 rl 22 and mag primer I could shoot 80 sierra's 3550 no bull it was a warm load though. I can shoot with less pressure 3600 with 22-243 with mag primers. I can't find anything to shoot any faster than 7828 does. It seems to 50 to 100 fps faster in my rifles than rl 22. I have had great luck with accuracy with 7828 and shoot it in 4 rifles I own. as far as throat ersion it probably is hard on barrels, I haven't shot a barrel out with it yet so I don't know how many rounds it takes. Your right a 7 twist makes since. The only reeason I was building a gun to shoot the 100's is because I have two 8 twist 22's. All my custom guns are savage so its no big deal to get a barrel chambered up. 7 twist barrels are easier to come by it seems like most of the major barrel makers make them. I have had quite a few bision or benchmark barrels and have had good luck with them. They said if I was in no hurry they could make me a custom twist. I am going to try to get the minium amount of twist needed to stablize these bullets. Less stress on the bullets will definately help out in the accuracy department. If I do have to with say a 6 or 6.5 twist I will go with 22 br. So if it doesn't shoot 100 or 95. It could still shoot the JLK's 90. If a 7 will work then thw 22-243 imp will be my choice. 22 br limits me to practical 500 yard shooting. anyways its alot more forgiving shooting at 500. If richard makes these bullets I am chambering a barrel up. For better or worse the only way i learn is through trial and error. I not old enough to have experience and good sense. I still learning and having fun , and I love to push the enevelope. Thanks For all your info its been very helpful. Reed