223 WSSM experience in STEALTH 2

Discussion in 'Equipment Discussions' started by riof16, Aug 7, 2005.

  1. riof16

    riof16 Active Member

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    I am shooting a new STEALTH 2 in 223 WSSM. My intent: 200-500 yard prairie dog dispatcher. My first experiment - straight from the Hornady book:
    40.4 Varget, 50gr V-Max, factory win brass, WLR primer, seated .010 back. Supposedly 3900, but chrono'd at 3770. The big problem is I am seeing high pressure, and BULLET DISINTEGRATION.
    I suspect my #1 issue is the 10 twist barrel (versus 12/14 in other .22s).
    Proposed [semi-amature] conclusion: This bullet will not handle this twist at this velocity.
    Proposed solution: 60gr V-max, and still even slow it down a couple hundred.

    Probable relating issue: The RCBS die is punching the neck I.D. to .220 (for the .224 bullet). Isn't that in itself giving me pressure issues due to an overtight seat?
    How about my seating depth of .010? Is that creating pressure by being too close?

    My big question: why did Winchester twist this hot-shooting .22 varmint-killer so fast?

    Also, is there a rule-of-thumb formula for hitting the heart of the stabilization/accuracy envelope for a particular caliber/twist/barrel-length/velocity vs. bullet weight? (In other words, what is the best weight varmint bullet that will maximize my Stealth accuracy but not rip the bullet apart, and how fast to shoot it)

    Any words?

    ....learning this game is really fun.....
     
  2. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Lafe,

    First off welcome to LRH!!

    I am suprised you are dusting bullets in the 1-10 at 3770 fps. Can you tell us if you got any bullets on paper or has it been dusting them from shot one?

    Did the bullets even land on paper at lower velocities and if so at what velocity did they start letting go?

    With the case capacity as large as the WSSM has I feel the 1-10 twist is just about right as it has plenty of HP to drive the heavier 22 cal bullets. To be honest, drop the lightweight bullets and jump up to the 69 gr class with this big gun and the 1-10 twist. You will loose a bit in dramatic expansion but you will gain significantly in ballistic performance.

    Also, the heavier bullets will generally help this round perform better. With 50-55 gr bullets this round will do very little more then the Swift will but if you move up to the larger bullets you will gain more velocity advantage with this large case capacity.

    I do not think you will get the 80 gr pills to stabilize in the 1-10 but it may be worth a try. I would get some 80 gr Sierra MKs in or ask someone if they could spare a dozen or so to test before you buy any. If you could get the 80 gr bullets to stabilize, you would be in a relm of ballistics head and shoulders above the traditional varmint bullet weights.

    I would seat the bullets 0.020" off the lands to start load development until you figure out the rifles personality.

    One last thing, are your bullets really hard to seat in the tight necks of the cases? are you getting alot of jacket shaved off the base of the bullet when its seated? If so this may be increasing the problem with the bullets letting loose.

    One sure way to solve this is to switch to a Ballistic Tip bullet as they will handle anything you can drive them to. I have hit 4300 fps in a 1-8 twist 22-6mm AI with the 55 gr Ballistic Tip and got 1/4 moa groups with it. May be worth a test if you are dusting bullets.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     

  3. Sasquatch

    Sasquatch Well-Known Member

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    my uncle's .223 wssm wouldn't shoot the 50 or 55 grain bullets well either. he bumped up to the 75 grain a-max and is shooting about 3/4 moa during zeroing at 200 yards.
     
  4. riof16

    riof16 Active Member

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    Very good words, Fifty!
    1.) I am dusting about 50%, the other 50% on paper.
    2.) Haven't tried lower velocity yet, foolishly went right for 3900fps the first load - lesson learned. Will report more on how it does in a lower gear.
    3.) I will begin seating .020 back for now.
    4.) YES, I am getting a tight seat, bullet hard to pull. Not sure why - ref. original post for inside diam. of case. I AM ALMOST CONVINCED THIS IS CAUSING MOST OF MY PRESSURE PROBLEM.

    Just as I suspected, this 223 WSSM is a V-6 in a 4 cylinder world. One big problem - Ballistic Tip .224 only goes to 55gr. I just came back from Sportman's Warehouse, bought some. I do hear you on going bigger, and I will, but I want to try these B-tip 55s too to have another data point. Problem I am seeing is not a good .224 varmint bullet in the 60-70 range. I will take your advice and try the 75gr A-max at some point on this roller coaster ride, soon as I can make more time and money, TIME being the worst problem.

    Off to the loading room for now, scarfing sandwich on the way.
    ..more to follow, and THANKS.
     
  5. LOBO

    LOBO Well-Known Member

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    Your 1/10 barrel should have no trouble stabilizing the 69 gr SMK. I think a 1/9 is preferred but a 1/10 should work.
     
  6. riof16

    riof16 Active Member

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    I am now convinced my problem has nothing to do with the barrel twist. My problem is the bullets are seating WAY too tight. When I try to pull them, the jacket and lead core rip apart before the bullet will come out. The problem is that I don't know if it is a die, case, or me doing something wrong issue. Continuing to investigate....
     
  7. LOBO

    LOBO Well-Known Member

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    keep us updated.
     
  8. chris matthews

    chris matthews Well-Known Member

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    Switch over to a Redding S die and then you can use the bushings to size the neck down and get better (lighter) neck tension.....that way you don't have to rely on the sizer button.....
    Part of the problem is the WSSM necks are thicker than my skull ( I am kind hard headed!!! LOL!!!!)
     
  9. riof16

    riof16 Active Member

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    Chris, I believe I am discovering two major problems:
    1.) As you mentioned, and I suspected, the necks are TOO THICK on WSSMs. Should I turn them down? Why does Winchester not know this?
    2.) The RCBS button sizer dies are about .002 to .003 too small! I also have a Coyote .243WSSM. I put the calipers on it to get a comparison, and the numbers are EXACTLY the same: neck punches out to .004 smaller than bullet diameter (.223WSSM die does exactly the same thing). My bullets are seating extremely tight in both WSSM guns. IS THIS WHY MY ACTUAL VELOCITY IS 100'S OF FPS SLOWER THAN THE BOOK PUBLISHED LOAD VELOCITY? Can I get my money back from RCBS and go redding?

    I guess someone has to be the lab rat with a "new" cartridge. The easy thing would be to pawn the lot and have my new friend Gary Ocock chamber me a nice swift... Someday, but for now, I like a challenge!
     
  10. chris matthews

    chris matthews Well-Known Member

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    You could turn them but then your chamber neck would be too big and you would over work your brass.
    The money back thing would be up to RCBS....maybe a phone call teeling them your problem would get you a larger button....feedback from customers SHOULD be important to them....it is to me....
     
  11. jarowe0122

    jarowe0122 Member

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    I am aware this is a relatively old thread but I'm hoping someone may help me out here.

    I have a new STEALTH II .223 WSSM. The first 15 shots were dead on. I was holding .400" consistently with factory 55 gr soft point ammunition. Since then I haven't had any luck buying that style from the local vendors. The only thing available is the 55 gr ballistic tip style. I too have the same issue as the author of the thread. I can't hold a 4" group at 100 yds now. I had a Super Sniper and switched to a Mark 4 LR/T 8.5-25. I was certain the scope was the issue. I returned the scope and got a replacement. I did all the recommended items Leupold Tech Services suggested and they decided I needed another. Well the replacement had the same issues. Needless to say I retried the Super Sniper and felt ignorant. I called "Winchester" to send the rifle back for repair. The tech guys says that the high speed ammunition of the WSSM line and rounds like the 22-250 foul very easily. I was told that they take them in and give them an extensive cleaning with KG-12 copper cleaner. I was told that usually clears up the problem. I decided to get some from E Author Brown. I just ordered it today. I did clean the barrel extremely well. But, I guess the style of cleaner isn't good enough. Is this guy correct?

    I am getting ready to begin reloading. I see the Redding S dies were recommended in this thread. I also read about the bullet seating problems. Should I get the dies that simply reshape the neck or the type that trims the brass to fit?

    Pardon the ignorance with the terms for relaoding. I have never relaoded a rifle cartridge.
     
  12. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    RODENT,

    Welcome aboard......

    I'd recommend a good barrel brake in procedure. See Dan Lilja's web site for instructions


    I'd suggest General Motor's Top Engine Cleaner to get teh carbon out.

    Otherwise known as GM TE Part# 1050002. 15oz, about a lifetime amount, for about 7 bucks. Do a searh on it here and you'll see its qualification.

    For Copper removal, Wipe Out is hard to beat, all things considered. Get the Accelerator if you're in more of a hurry. Again do a search here to learn more about it.

    Regarding reloading dies I'm a bit light as I just use regular RCBS dies and size a little more than 1/2 the neck and set the shoulder back when necessary with the Full Length resize die.

    Any one that is really serious seems to use the Redding or Lee dies w/the neck bushingto fit the specific chamber and a full body to set the shoulder back when necessary.

    Good luck on your quest.
     
  13. jarowe0122

    jarowe0122 Member

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    Roy,
    It turns out that I had a couple of things working against me. Leupold came back and said they were sending me a me scope. Relunctantly, they told me that there was loose internal parts. I was astounded. The scope hasn't made it back to me yet but I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the barrel break in advise. I would have thought it was completely broken in but I am going to give it another look.