.223 rem Neck I.D. after sizing ( Help )

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Rev., Feb 15, 2011.

  1. Rev.

    Rev. Well-Known Member

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    Guys,

    I'm using a RCBS FL die to size my .223rem. My problem is after I size my cases & go to trim them my pilot will get stuck in the case. The pilot measures .224'' & the neck I.D. is .215''.

    So my question is what should the neck I.D. be after FL sizing & I'm using win brasslightbulb

    Thanks
     
  2. Kevin Thomas

    Kevin Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Depends on how much neck tension you're going for here, but I'd run around .222" or .221" at the absolute smallest. For a bolt gun where the ammo wouldn't be subject to too much rough handling, I wouldn't balk at .223" or so. At .215", that's way too tight. You're going to get very short case life, and accuracy will likely be an issue as well. Check the size of your expander ball, to start with. To get a real handle on this, you might want to take a look at the bushing dies, like the Redding Type S dies. These have interchangable bushings (hence the name; duh!) that can be had in .001" increments. With these, you can set the neck tension very precisely, and not overwork the brass like the current dies are doing.

    Another option would be to take a look at Sinclair's expander or turning mandrels. That will solve the trimmer pilot issue, and help uniform the neck tension better for you; still will be overworking the brass, and that's a different issue.
     

  3. Trickymissfit

    Trickymissfit Well-Known Member

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    measure the diameter of your expander ball on the stem of the sizing die. It'll probably be around .220" (allowing for a thousandth or so of spring back). The next problem you'll encounter is trying to measure the actual case I.D. A typical dial caliper will not be accurate enough for your needs. What you need is known as a small hole gauge (Enco sells them). You expand the ball, and then measure it with a micrometer. This system is very accurate!
    gary
     
  4. Rev.

    Rev. Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Guys!!

    I checked my expander last night & it's .220'' . Do you guys thing my problem is the dies?
     
  5. Trickymissfit

    Trickymissfit Well-Known Member

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    first of all, what diameter is a fired case neck before running thru the sizer die? Will it go over the mandrel on the trimmer? Also whatkind of brass are you using?
    Try sizing a case without the expander ball in place, and then measure the case neck. I'd not worry too much about the die right now, before checking the other stuff out
    gary
     
  6. Rev.

    Rev. Well-Known Member

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    Fired O.D. .254''
    yes it will go over trimmer mandrel

    Sized with expander O.D .244'' no/go

    Sized without expander O.D. .240''
     
  7. Kevin Thomas

    Kevin Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Rev,

    There's an alternative to the bushing dies, which might be a bit cheaper if you've got a machine shop in the area; have them hone out the neck portion of your existing die, once you determine what the neck dimensions need to be. Shouldn't charge you more than a few bucks, and I've done this on some dies I didn't want to invest in neck dies for (oddballs, rarely used calibers, that sort of thing). This is a one-time deal, so make sure the dimensions are correct. The idea here is to allow suficient neck tension without working the brass anymore than absolutely necessary. Eawsier to load that way, and the brass will last a lot longer for you.
     
  8. Rev.

    Rev. Well-Known Member

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    Not a bad idea!!!

    I got a friend who is a maintance manager for a large company. I was going to take the die over & get the dimensions checked out. So I'll asklightbulb

    Thanks
     
  9. Kevin Thomas

    Kevin Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Could get away with it pretty cheaply . . . like a six pack or so. Just make sure you've got the dimensions correct, and have him run on the minimum side to begin with. Easy enough to take a bit more off if you need to. Kinda hard to put it back on, if you know what I mean.

    I've done this with lots of dies, especially when I had access to a full machine shop right outside my range. Got to admit, that was a nice perk!
     
  10. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    Fixing the die will only solve part of your problems.
    The trimmer pilot should NOT be at bullet diameter, because your need for trimming is due to excess FL sizing. So trimming before FL sizing is really backwards and less effective.

    The Sinclair expander mandrels will not leave the neck IDs over cal, but still 1-2thou under(which is useful). A K&M turning mandrel requires over cal sizing to fit(less useful), so their Expandiron would probably help you work around the trimmer pilot. But personally, I'd have your pilot turned down or buy another setup.
     
  11. Trickymissfit

    Trickymissfit Well-Known Member

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    with you numbers, I see a .0195" neck wall thickness. That seems rather excessive. I just checked three virgin Winchester .223 cases (right outta the bag, and unsized), and the necks were .245 to .2455 on the O.D. with an I. D. that ranged from .220" to .2205". Or roughly a .012" neck wall thickness. By chance are you using military brass? For these cases (as they are right now) you would need a .219" to .2195" mandrel. I would take a couple of sized cases, and polish the mandrel to where it slides into the I.D. Now for the next issue. For some odd reason the necks diameters seem oversize. You can turn them down to about .250", or perhaps try a Lee Collet die (assuming it will open up that much). What is the neck diamter on a loaded round? Also do you see any excessive pressure signs after firing a round? Personally I don't think the issue is die related, but with the brass if your numbers are good.
    gary

    P.S. Have your buddy make a new mandrel that's .219" after polishing. Don't worry about it not being hard because your only going to trim a couple rounds. Trim two or three cases, and then load them. You should see .250" (+/- .003") on the O.D. with a loaded round. If your bigger than that, you need to turn the necks a little bit or seek different brass
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  12. Kevin Thomas

    Kevin Thomas Well-Known Member

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    Rev,

    Mike and Gary are correct here, and this was something I clearly glossed over; the pilot should be less than bullet diameter (.224"), and sufficiently below to prevent its binding when you trim. Easy fix here, as Mike alluded to. If you have a drill press, chuck the pilot in place and touch it down with some emory or crocus cloth. These aren't generally hardened, and this isn't hard to do. Frankly, I'f been using a Gracey and/or Giraud for so long I've about forgotten what pilot looks like!
     
  13. Trickymissfit

    Trickymissfit Well-Known Member

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    I figured .001" clearence in the I.D. would be plenty. As for opening up the neck on the die, the best way to do it is with a Sunnen hone. But that would be the last thing I'd consider doing. I'm more concerned about the cases he's using than anything else. I went thru a coffee can of mixed once fired brass from just about everybody, and the biggest neck O.D. I found (unsized) was .251". Love to see a chamber cast, because I have a feeling that he's one of the very lucky ones that have a minimum spec chamber (I'll even go so far as to guess it's a Savage as they tend to cut their chambers tighter than most do). If he were close by, I'd invite him over for a try with someother die sets to get a second and third opinion.

    This brings into the grand revelation for the day! I have three bags of virgin .223 brass plus a couple coffee cans full (about a lifetime supply!). Well I cut one of the bags open and remove several cases for a measurement. I discover that the cases have absolutely no burr in the flash hole, and it almost looks like they were reamed! I go and pull another handfull with the same results. Next I check one of the coffee cans and get the same results! (now I hate deburring flash holes almost as bad as cutting primer pockets) After looking over a hundred or so cases I decide my eyes are playing tricks so I check the cases out with a probe; there are no burrs! How can this be??
    gary