210 bergers blowing up?? help 30-378 wby

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by bsb, May 14, 2006.

  1. bsb

    bsb Well-Known Member

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    This is the deal, me and my Brother has been trying to get dialed in for 1000yrds, we loaded some 210 bergers last week in his 30-378 and found a good load with 105Gr of retumbo (shot probably 20 into paper just fine)
    with no pressure signs so he loaded up 60 and went to the
    range (field) He changed his scope to his other 8.5x25
    leupold so we sighted in at 200 yrds well we got it on a 8"
    paper plate did 2 shots about a 11/2" apart the next shot
    hit nothing no plate or plywood but my boy said he saw
    somthing hit about 20' low we thought huh whats the deal!
    so we started shooting at 1000' yrds he missed 1st 2 and the dust boiled up each miss as it is in a dry field
    then he hit the plate 3 strait let the gun cooldown and tryed it again, this time nothing no dust or nothing but a wiered
    twang sound he shot again and same thing, so we picked a
    little bush about 700yrds same thing no dust or nothing
    just wierd twang sound! so I shot my 168Bergers (RUM) at bush
    and the dust flew big time. well all his new brass he just
    loaded had pressure signs on the base A 1/8" round imprint
    same load as the weeks before it was about 70 degress here today and I am telling you the bullet is going crazy sometimes! It chronoed at 3115 (210 bergers) the week before
    so why is it showing the pressure signs could be temp etc I know,but why are those bullets not making the flight?
    And one time when He was shooting at the 1000Yrd plate we saw some dirt (about like a dirt clod Threw) being kicked up about a 100 yrs away and the twang sound. when there was a twang sound there was no dust or nothing at targets! when there was no twang sound the dirt flew like a tornado!
    please help? we are calling walt berger in morning.
    Yes the loads were a little hot for some reason, new cases
    or temp or different powder batch, but is it normal to have bullets go bye bye with a little extra pressure?
    Dont get me wrong any signs of pressure is unexceptable for us.
     
  2. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    I personally have chronoed the 210 Berger VLD's at velocities higher than what you have reached with no problems so I don't think it was the speed that blew them up which is usually the culprit because of the increase in rpm's and resulting increasing the centrifugal force.

    I once had a gun that began doing the same thing as yours with the 80 grain Bergers. Used to shoot them into scary groups at 1k but once the throat got a little worn, the roughness was something the Bergers couldn't handle. They would go out there about 100 yards and then poooff!

    Switched to the Sierra 80 grainers and they lasted for about another 150 rounds or so until they started blowing up too.

    Check the throat on that WBY. If it is rough, you may have to shoot the Sierra 220 MK's. They work great as well.

    Good luck.
     

  3. bsb

    bsb Well-Known Member

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    grouper! thanks you may be on to something will keep you posted.Thanks for awsome response.I did not think of that!
    I think those bergers are really soft jackets
     
  4. daveosok

    daveosok Guest

    We pushed the Berger 210 behind 100 grains of H1000 out of a 34 in tube at 3300 fps. We did not witness what you are describing but they wouldnt group worth a crap.

    When then swapped to Berger 190's and using the same load we pushed them to 3600 fps. Accuracy was good but the barrel needed to be cleaned or the pressure would increase after around 10 shots.

    Copper fouling build up caused a smaller bore AND carbon build-up in the space between the start of the case mouth and begining of the throat.

    This carbon build up caused some serious pressure signs after about 10 rnds and needed to be cleaned as well as the copper fouling.

    Is this a true WBY rifle? If so it more than likely has loads of freebore and can be subjected to the same carbon build-up as well as horrible copper fouling.

    Inspect the bore and pay particular attention to the throat area.

    I have yet to dust a Berger bullet but d-a has done it in his 257 STW but thats a bit different story of say 3700 fps area.

    The 1/8th round imprint is the ejector mark. This carbon build-up can cause the area of the chamber where the neck seats to become smaller and this will increase your pressure to extremes.

    Dave
     
  5. speedbump

    speedbump Well-Known Member

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    Roy, back when the 7mmRUM was a not-yet-released thing, I decided to wildcat it. I liked the idea of Berger's .284" 180VLD at RUM velocities, so I called Walt Berger. Walt asked about the twist & expected velocity. I heard him say, "Wait a minute, I think I have some of the data from the 6.5mm project around here somewhere...." Several minutes later, he get back on the phone, did some calculations, & said "Yep, that's awful close. They may come apart, and they may not." He explained exactly what was posted above - super high RPMs & the thin J-4 jacket aren't real conducive to rough throats or sharp rifling.

    Being a true gentleman, he recommended I speak to Jimmie Knox &/or Bob Cauterucio since both used Sierra-thickness jackets in their bullets. Both fellas also proved to be wise, fine, patient gents & helped out a loony nobody with a theory. The rest isn't exactly history, but a Cauterucio 156 or 176 will definitely hold up to RUM speed. I still shoot Berger 70s & 80s in .223, as much for loyalty to good people as the quality they hold.

    I was spotting for a buddy in an F-class match a couple of years ago. He was shooting a 22-250AI & some J-4 jacketed bullets. All was going well - 10, X, X, X, 10.... then POOOF about 200 yards out. I was on the scope & saw it happen. The guy spotting to my left saw it happen also, looked over with a smile, and motioned to my pal to say, "Does he know?" I shook my head (sadistically) & waited. John finally looked over & said, "Call for a mark!" I told him I would, but he wouldn't like the result, because what was LEFT of his bullet was somewhere between us & the 300 yard line. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Sorry for the long post, but I figured from the tone of your post you could use a little humor, plus a reminder that whatever mistakes we make along the way, rest assured some other shooter(s) has done the same. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  6. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Recommend couple things.

    1. Go with JLk 210s or the new Sierra 210 or Clinch River 216s

    2. Borescope the bore, friend had almost new barrel that developed occlusion (ie pit)and was blowing up bullets after it got hot. Not the barrel mftrs fault, it was just under the bore surface and little bit of firing opened it up.

    BH
     
  7. bsb

    bsb Well-Known Member

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    You guys are a huge help, thanks so much I will keep you posted what walt says.
     
  8. wildworks

    wildworks Well-Known Member

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    Give Richard Graves at Wildcat Bullets call and talk to him about the 210 ulds
     
  9. bsb

    bsb Well-Known Member

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    wild, I will do that thanks
     
  10. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Roygeterdone,

    How far are you seating the Bergers off the lands if any? I suspect if you are shooting out of a factory Wby you have a healthy dose of freebore to jump to the lands.

    If this is the case, you will tear up the Berger jackets very quickly with this jump to the lands. It has to do with the bullet gainining linear velocity before it begins to rotate.

    What happens is when the bullets slams into the lands, the front of the bullet begins to rotate but the rear of the heavy long bullet resists this rotation and the bullet is wringed out like a wet towel.

    This dramatically weakens the jacket core bond and will at least degrade accuracy and in worst case will cause bullet failure.

    If your jumping to the lands I suspect this is your problem.

    If you seat the Bergers to touch or to be slightly into the lands this generally limits this problem up to about 3200-3250 fps but above that you will again see accuracy problems rear their head with the Bergers.

    I would agree, a wildcat or sierra bullet will probably solve most of your problems but even then, if your jumping significantly to the lands you may have issues with these bullets as well at higher velocities though.

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  11. bsb

    bsb Well-Known Member

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    Fifty your right about the jump I dont think I could seat the bullet long eneogh to even come close to the lands,
    at least I could not on my 300wby and the 378 I believe is the same way,
    you gave an excellent point tho, I think the freebore
    may just be no good for these bullets. I have not talked to berger yet but hopfully within the hour.
    I really cant thank you guys eneouph.
     
  12. bsb

    bsb Well-Known Member

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    I just talked to berger (not Walt) the bullet tech said it was right on the edge of coming apart all time he thought,
    He recomended dropping a 1/2 grain and seeing what happens
    I have my suspisions tho,
    He told me that weatherby put the free bore in the rifles
    for safety reasons I thought it was for velocity!
    He also said the closer the bullet was to the lands the faster the bullet would go because of more pressure, I thought I tested that theory the other week and found the oppisite
    the further away the bullet from the lands the more veocity you got! especially on the weatherbys
     
  13. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Roygeterdone,

    The Berger rep is giving you just a partial portion of the actual trueth without qualifying his comments. Let me see if I can explain his points a bit.

    I would agree with him that these bullets are on the ragged edge of staying together but this is not because of the velocity or pressure, its because of the jump into the lands which is tearing the bullets jackets free of the lead core. Nothing more nothing less. If you seated the bullets 5 thou into the lands your problem I am sure would go away until you get to the 3200-3250 fps range. After this accuracy will generally start to suffer.

    In my opinion, dropping 1/2 grain will not amount to Jack Squat in a case the size of the 30-378, bad advice in my opinion, will not help your problem.

    As far as the freebore in the Wby rifles. This is not a safety issue. It is a chambering method which flattens the initital pressure spike when a round is fired in the rifle. It does this because the bullet gains velocity before it hits the origins of the rifling. Because the bullet has gained significant velocity, there is less resistance when the bullet encounters and is engraved by the rifling. Thus it will lower chamber pressure and flatten the pressure spike.

    This allows you to do several things, mainly, add more powder to your charge without increasing pressure significantly.

    This is why if you take a factory rifle chambered in say 30-378 and compare it to a short throated custom rifle in 30-378, the Wby rifle will generally produce significantly more velocity for a given barrel length.

    Simply put, you are correct, Weatherbys claim to fame was hyper velocity in those early days. He got this and kept pressures in a high but usible range by freeboring his chambers. It is an attempt to get every last fps of velocity possible out of a given cartridge but often at the expense of accuracy.

    As to getting higher velocity with the bullets seated closer to the lands. This is true to a point. If you take a given max load developed with the bullet 0.200" off the lands you will get X PSI of pressure. If you take that same load but now seat the bullet so that it is touching the lands, pressure will increase dramatically because the freebore situation has been removed.

    That comment is concerned with using the same load for both seating depths.

    TO more accurately discribe things, if you take one seating depth, say 0.200" off the lands again, and develope the load to max pressures you will get X fps.

    Now if you take a seating depth of say touching the lands and work that load up to the same max pressure as the previous freebore load, Your top velocity will be lower simply because your pressure spike will be steeper and you will reach max pressures sooner then you will with a freebore situation.

    So while there is some trueth to his comments, they are really only half trueths.

    On average, freebore will increase top possible velocity but again generally at the expense of accuracy.

    One other tip to remember, when using a heavy thin jacketed bullet. The farther away from the lands you seat the bullet, the harder it is on the bullet to survive the launch. The closer the bullet is seated into the lands the easier it is on the bullet.

    The reason is simple, if a thin jacketed bullet is seated to touch or even softly into the lands, when it is fired, it will begin rotating the second it begins to travel down the barrel. This basically eliminates the "Wringing" of the bullet and it will survive much higher launch velocities.

    Good Shooting, hope this murkies the waters even more!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  14. bsb

    bsb Well-Known Member

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    Kirby you are awsome and I couldn't have said it better /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
    I talked with walt berger he is leaning toward a dirty barrel, (Heck of a nice guy might I add)here is what he sent back to me in the email he added some qustions to my post but i could not get them high lighted on here sorry.

    A little statement about this cartridge. It is a BIG overbore cartridge using a lot of slow burning powder that results in short barrel life. How short depends on the manner in which it is used. If the barrel is a factory contour and shots are fired in rather rapid sequence barrel life will be SHORT. If the barrel has not been properly cleaned and copper and powder fouling allowed to build up bullet damage will be excessive and the integrity of the bullet will be destroyed and their WILL be in-flight bullet failure and you are experiencing in flight bullet failure. The 30/378 has been used in 1000 yard bench rest matches with some success. They utilize massive diameter barrels some 30 plus inches long and the total rifle can weigh in excess of 50 pounds. Barrel life is short and of no real concern to most of these shooters as they will be changed after a few hundred rounds.

    With the above out of the road some comments, questions and observations below:

    This is the deal, me and my Brother has been trying to get dialed in for 1000yrds, we loaded some 210 bergers last week in his 30-378 and found a good load with 105Gr of retumbo (shot probably 20 into paper just fine) Is the rifle a factory rifle and was the barrel clean when you started your testing to find "that good load" and was the rifle cleaned (and how was it cleaned) after the 20 shots to determine a good load?

    with no pressure signs so he loaded up 60 and went to the
    range (field) He changed his scope to his other 8.5x25

    leupold so we sighted in at 200 yrds well we got it on a 8" How many shots did it take to get on the paper plate, after the scope change, and did you have any bullet failures during this sight in procedure?

    paper plate did 2 shots about a 11/2" apart the next shot
    hit nothing no plate or plywood but my boy said he saw
    somthing hit about 20' low we thought huh whats the deal!

    so we started shooting at 1000' yrds he missed 1st 2 and the dust boiled up each miss as it is in a dry field At what distance did the dust boil up and was it close to the bullets path to the target?
    then he hit the plate 3 strait let the gun cooldown and tryed it again, this time nothing no dust or nothing but a wiered You were shooting over a dusty field from muzzle to 1000 yards and you did not see any bullet impact in the field?

    twang sound he shot again and same thing, so we picked a
    little bush about 700yrds same thing no dust or nothing

    just wierd twang sound! The so called twang sound could it have been sort of a whistle sound. If a bullet completely bows up it will most likely blow up between 30 and 70 yards was this distance over the dusty field? so I shot my 168Bergers (RUM) at bush
    and the dust flew big time. well all his new brass he just Is this the same brass and load that you used to sighted the rifle in on the paper plate?
    loaded had pressure signs on the base A 1/8" round imprint Was this imprint from the ejector in the bolt?

    same load as the weeks before it was about 70 degress here today and I am telling you the bullet is going crazy sometimes! It chronoed at 3115 (210 bergers) the week before

    so why is it showing the pressure signs could be temp etc I know,but why are those bullets not making the flight? Explain your reloading procedure and is it the same as the cartridge you used to work up your load. Yes, temperature does make a difference what was the temperature when you were working up your load?
    And one time when He was shooting at the 1000Yrd plate we saw some dirt (about like a dirt clod Threw) being kicked up about a 100 yrs away and the twang sound. when there was a twang sound there was no dust or nothing at targets! when there was no twang sound the dirt flew like a tornado! This dust you saw at about 100 yards was most likely a complete bullet failure.

    please help? we are calling walt berger in morning.
    Yes the loads were a little hot for some reason, new cases

    or temp or different powder batch, but is it normal to have bullets go bye bye with a little extra pressure? Since the back of the case should an indentation it is a sign of pressure but I am not sure this is all of the problem. Did the bolt handle lift hard when you ejected the fired round?

    Dont get me wrong any signs of pressure is unexceptable for us.

    Please help walt Some questions below

    How many rounds has been fired through this rifle?

    Was it purchased new?

    Does it have a muzzle brake?

    From the time you worked up your loads till you quit shooting how many times was the rifle cleaned?

    What kind of reloading equipment are you using?

    Do you measure or weigh your powder?

    Were the case mouths of the new brass chamfered?

    What was the cartridge over all length?

    Did you pierce any primers and what primers were you using.

    Thanks for your help on this.
    Walt Berger
    Berger Bullets
    Technical Advisor

    Phone No 623 587 9363
    PS One problem with the phone is my hearing is very bad and I do have a hard time understand some of our customers when they call.