200 Grain Wildcat - so far so good

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by ss7mm, Jul 20, 2005.

  1. ss7mm

    ss7mm Writers Guild

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    I have a good supply of 200 grain Wildcat bullets waiting for my new 7mm Allen Mag and I just couldn’t stand it, seeing them sitting there, and waiting for the new gun, so I tried them in my 7mmWby.

    I talked to Richard about them and he didn’t think they would stabilize in my gun but curiosity got the best of me and I went out this afternoon and shot a ladder test at 300 yards using the 200 grain Wildcat ULD RBBT bullets in my factory barreled 7mmWby.

    When I do a ladder test I always load 3 extra of the lowest load to get on target with. These 3 lowest went into 3/4” at 100 yards. So far so good and they all cut normal round holes.

    Then I moved the target frame to 300 yards and did the ladder test. I honestly expected to see some really funny holes at 300 with these long, heavy bullets being shot in a 1-10" barrel, but at 300 they all stabilized and all went through pointy end first.

    I was using WC872 and as expected the nodes were better in the upper range of the test. The big Wildcats were seated .020” off the lands. I only tested up to 103% fill, but the grouping looked a lot better in the upper ranges, so I will probably try bumping it up a little more later.

    For now I will take the best looking loads and load up some for test groups. I will also test these at longer ranges before trying hotter loads.

    I am curious to see if they will still stabilize and shoot at longer ranges. This is in a 1-10” twist barrel and Richard felt that 1-8” would be better. Sometimes you just have to try things to see if they work. I am not saying they work great yet. I will reserve that until after I see what they do at a little longer range.

    I can tell you one thing I noticed as soon as I started shooting them. I had shot some 169.5 Wildcat ULD RBBT rounds just prior to trying the 200 grain rounds and I can tell you that the 200’s really disturb the terrain when they land.

    If you’ve got a 7mm and are interested in the big 200 grain Wildcats, give them a try. They just might work. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     

  2. sscoyote

    sscoyote Well-Known Member

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    Hey 7-- i have some to shoot out of my 7-270 WSM APS XP-100 handgun. Everything's ready to go for testing except the weather-- it's been HOT here during the middle of the day, so i haven't been able to get to the range yet. Been working graves. and it's 100+ for the last week when i'm up at 2:00. I'm off in the AM for 6 days so it's off to the range with powder, bullets, etc. to see what they'll do in my handgun. Nice to hear about good bullet splash. I need to find out what they'll do at a mile, and Mom will be spotting for me for now, so that helps some.
     

  3. 7Rumloader

    7Rumloader Well-Known Member

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    ss7mm did you chrono them?? Just curious on how fast you getting them in the weatherby mag and wondering what I could get out of my 7. They seem to be doing fine in the 1n10 and I would love to give them a rip in my RUM with the 1n9 twist.
    Wanta share some?? Just funning with ya?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Unless you do! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I may have to order in a box for myself for a 7mm AM thats on my list next from APS.
    Keep us posted.
     
  4. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    ss7mm, did the same thing only with some 169 gr prototypes in .277 that Richard sent me. Discussions with Richard and Kirby indicated that they wouldn't stabilize in a 10" twist @ 270 Win velocities.

    My question is "What is unstable?" I got nice round holes and very consistent groups, though a little large.

    What really impressed me was the velocities I got. This is a rifle that I am 'real" familiar with and had to work up some loads from scratch. Used 4831sc and 7828 and got 2900 FPS out of a Lilja 27" bbl. Accuracy was inches of Muley not inchs of Chuck. But again "what does stable mean?" I really guess I don't know?

    Would have been a stroke of luck if I'd have got the barrel w/the 9" twist but that was before Richards bullets existec. Who wooda thunk it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  5. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    SS7mm

    It sounds like you have a standard factory throat with a freebore of 0.375.

    Quote "The big Wildcats were seated .020” .

    Would you mind measuring (approximately) the bearing length of the bullet?

    I assume we are talking about hunting (thick) jacket bullets in the 200 gr.

    I have a 1:9.25 twist Shilen barrel with factory freebore that has about 1000 rds down it. It is so worn out from over max loads that it will only stabilize long bearing surface bullets. I am trying to nurse it along for another year or so until Kirby gets done testing and my financial future (childrens' tuition) is more certain.

    Thanks
     
  6. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    ss7mm,

    Well, that is a suprise to me but there are often suprises in this old world. Thats why it pays to test something just to see what happens!!!

    Only problem now is I have a shop full of work to do but also a bench full of prepped cases for my 7mm (will call it my 7mm to be politically correct as to not offend some) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    The reason we decided to go with the fast 1-7 twist barrels is first of all because the computer models recommended this but also because these will be used as big game bullets and rounds so they need to stabilize in every condition, hot, cold, sea level, 14,000 ft, 2800 fps, 3300 fps, everything.

    Appearently this is a bit more then we needed but then again reliability is the aspect were after. This is good information though and very interesting.

    I will be testing these bullets soon in my 1-9 twist barrel on my 7mm and will hopefully get the same results as you. We will see.

    When I was developing loads for my 257 with the 156 gr ULD RBBT I was using a 1-8 Pac Nor barrel as that was the only fast twist 257 barrel I was aware of at the time. With starting loads there was a noticable nose tear on the bullets at 100 yards until velocity reached 2950 fps and then things seemed to round up as far as the bullet holes went.

    At 500 yards groups were not that impressive until I got to 3100 fps and then they almost instantly tightened up and continued to do so until I topped out in the high 3300 fps range telling me that while the 1-8 twist will stabilize this bullet at top velocities it is marginal.

    I do not feel comfortable with a twist rate that only stabilizes bullets at the top end of the velocity spectrum. That said, I have tested this 257 with these 156 gr ULDs out to 1/2 mile and they hold their stability well out to this range.

    Have not tested them at range in cold weather though.

    This is the reason I chose the 1-7 for the 257 as well as the 7mm.

    Still, this is very interesting results!!!

    See, if you would have asked Richard or myself if this would work we would have said probably not but just proves you need to get some and try them for yourself. Nothing substitutes for good ol fashion range testing.

    I think I will load some up early this morning, go put in a full day in the shop and then either test them tonight or early inthe morning when its cool.

    Great report, keep us posted!!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  7. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Roy,

    I still would not recommend the 169.5 gr ULD RBBTs for a 270 Win velocitys in a standard twist barrel.

    That said, I have to say that because sure enough I recommend them and someone get a barrel with a slightly slower twist and they key hole on them on target and I get the raw end of the deal.

    I have no problem being proved wrong, actually does not bother me a bit. You will find that Richard and myself are generally quite conservative in out recommendation simply because we want things to work for you with 100% reliability.

    That is not to say we do not fully endorse testing our recommendations as both ss7mm and yourself have proven that logic as far as rifle twist is not always easy to predict what bullets will and will not work.

    Testing in your rifle in your conditions are far more valuable then anything Richard or myself could tell you in type or words.

    Glad they are working for you and let us know how they perform if you use them on game!!

    Later,

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  8. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I still would not recommend the 169.5 gr ULD RBBTs for a 270 Win velocitys in a standard twist barrel.

    <font color="blue"> I agree with you, I wouldn't recommend their use in 270 win vel and std twist. But its like the fly and the light, they are so purdy I had to experiment.</font>

    Glad they are working for you and let us know how they perform if you use them on game!!

    <font color="blue"> I wouldn't say that they are "working" for me just because the holes were round. What I was impressed with was the velocity of 2900 fps. That's pretty high for a winny. I'll drop back to the 140s for game.</font>

    <font color="blue"> What my question really is is: "Is a bullet 'fully' stabalized just because the hole in the target is round. (don't let all the is's confuse ya /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif) The rifle and I are capable of 1" or better @ 200. These bullets went right at 2.5" @ 200 w/a sd of 0. That is, all 6 groups (3 shot) were right at 2.5" @ 200. Pretty consistent. Hense, Minutes of Muley vs Minutes of Rockchuck.</font>



    [/ QUOTE ]
     
  9. ss7mm

    ss7mm Writers Guild

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    sscoyote:

    We are having the same heat problems here. That's why I waited until late yesterday. I actually drove up in the hills at about 3500' elevation and did the shooting. That way I could set up my shooting stuff in the shade. It was 94 degrees at home but only 78 degrees where I was shooting.
    They do let you know when they hit something that's for sure.
     
  10. ss7mm

    ss7mm Writers Guild

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    7RUMloader:

    Yes I did. I chrono everything I'm testing. The top load I quit with went through at 2850 fps.

    That's a far cry from what the 7mm Allen Mag will do, but for now it's fun playing with them.

    None of the loads I shot indicated pressure in any way and all were easy fingertip extraction. Like I mentioned, the load I quit on was 103% fill and if the loads I try do o.k. then I'll kick that up a little to see what happens.

    Even though they spit out slower than the 169.5's, Exbal says they catch up and start to kick butt at the ranges where it really counts.

    It takes a little to get that big pill going, but once it's going not much effects it.

    Give Richard a call and try some. You'll never know what they do in your gun unless you try them.
     
  11. ss7mm

    ss7mm Writers Guild

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    buffalobob:

    The bearing surface is about .701". That will vary depemding on what you use, and how you use it to measure the length.

    To get them out that long and be .020" off the lands it means single feed but I knew that going in.
     
  12. ss7mm

    ss7mm Writers Guild

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    Kirby:

    I know what you mean about the surprise. I fully expected to see some really funny holes in the paper but so far they are nice and round. I'd of bet money they would be flopping like a fish out of water but who knows why they didn't. Shape of bullet, bearing surface, ogive etc., velocity??? Some combination seems to work, at least for now.

    I can't wait to see what the results will be with the 1-9 barrel with your 7mm Allen Magnum. Don't know what that other round is you're talking about, but I know you're testing, and building for me, a 7mm Allen Magnum. It's going to be interesting seeing the results you get with the 1-9 and then progressing to the 1-7 barrels!!!

    I don't think you'll get the same results with your 1-9 as I did. I think you will do better.

    I fully agree that the 1-7 is probably the best combination and would also prefer to spin them a little more than needed as opposed to not enough.

    I did talk to you guys about the twist factors and in fact talked to Richard just recently about this and he also felt that the faster twist would be better. The general concensus is I'm about at least 2" off in twist. I didn't think it'd work, but I'm getting antsy about the new gun so just decided to go out and play, thinking I'd make a couple of keyholes and then quit.

    I still wouldn't bet they will work well in my twist but I'm going to find out. I know for now they are punching round holes but the proof will be in the groups and shooting at longer ranges.

    One thing I'll mention that I noticed as soon as I switched to the 200's was that I could feel a difference in gun torque with the 200's.

    That's a big pill to launch out of a 7mm, but there's no mistaking when and where they hit.

    Guess I'll just keep playing with my toy gun until the new package arrives with the real 7mm Allen Magnum.
     
  13. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Roy,

    A simple answer to your question, "Is a bullet fully stabilized if its making round bullet holes?" is NO.

    THere can be significant yaw in a bullet even with a round bullet hole. IT does tell us that we are at least very close to stabilization by getting consistant round bullet holes.

    The hardest test for a bullet in my opinion is in very cold temps at high altitudes.

    Also, terminally, a bullet on the fringes of stability will generally tumble after impact whereas a bullet that is fully stabilized or rotating more then required will often penetrate straighter. Now there are more variable to this obviously so take this as a simple comment that a fully stabilized bullet will penetrate straighter then a marginally stabiled bullet. With an expanding bullet this is less dramatic but in tests with the big bore rifles firing solids, this has been proven true.

    Basically the best teller of bullet stability is to test at extended ranges and see what the groups look like. Marginally unstable bullets will result in larger groups the a properly stabilized bullet.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  14. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    ss7mm,

    I will report soon.

    We are just waiting on the stock my friend, and the base that is on backorder from Nesika. McMillan is backing me up in a serious way!!!!

    Lets just say August and September will be a blurr spent in the shop!!

    I will let you know how the 200 gr do in the 1-9 and what we can drive them to in the 26.5" barrel.

    Good testing!!! Very interesting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)