180 grain Scirocco II's & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by 300winnie, May 15, 2006.

  1. 300winnie

    300winnie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    133
    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    I posted this on the a/r site, so if you have already seen it I apologize for the duplication.

    Here is the background:

    A few years ago (2002 to be exact) I spent a lot of time working up a load with the original version of the Swift Scirocco in the 180 grain guise. Result was a load that would consistently shoot sub-m.o.a., with the average of all the 3 shot groups I recorded being .886".

    A year later Nosler comes out with the Accubond and not being able to leave things well enough alone I play with those until I get a good load. I hunt with that for three years.

    Next, Swift comes out with the Scirocco II. I still can't leave things well enough alone so I think, wow, they improved it...I liked it before, I will give it a try. On top of that, I get a call from Bill Hober and visit with him for about 35 minutes one day and he convinces me to try them again. Wallah! I buy a box of them and load them up just like my load of old thinking they would shoot the same as the old. Afterall, the advertising from swift says "Now, with the introduction of the NEXT GENERATION…Scirocco II, the bar goes up again. Scirocco II has exactly the same profile, both inside and out. All load data and bullet specifications remain the same as the original."

    I think I made a mistake with the assumption listed above here because I went to the range Saturday and fired a total of 13 shots (1 fouler and 4 three shot groups). The total group size of the 4 three shot groups was in the neighborhood of 3.5". None of the groups was under an inch, with the closest being about 1.5" (there were two of those).

    In addition to this problem, I had sticky bolt extraction after the shots. Not sticky, bolt lift, just stiff pulling it back.

    Anyway, after coming home p*$$&% and having time to think through it (probably too much) I have the following thoughts.

    1. Everything can't be the same...they changed something in the metallugy to make it perform different.

    2. Whatever they did increased pressures in my load to the point of the hesitant bolt throw/pull.

    3. Change in pressure/velocity has messed with my grouping.

    My thoughts are to back off in 1/2 grain increments for three different loads and see what happens from there.

    What are your thoughts, opinions and advice based on the above description of events?

    Thanks.
     
  2. BLASERMAN

    BLASERMAN Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    281
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Re: 180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    I have been shooting them for about 5 yrs, never had a problem . I have never tryed the new II's but I just bought some old stock off gun broker. Maybe I should find more.
    This is all I shoot out of my .300 WBY.I am shooting them at 3000 fps.
     

  3. POP

    POP Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,478
    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2001
    Re: 180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    [ QUOTE ]
    1. Everything can't be the same...they changed something in the metallugy to make it perform different.

    2. Whatever they did increased pressures in my load to the point of the hesitant bolt throw/pull.

    3. Change in pressure/velocity has messed with my grouping.

    My thoughts are to back off in 1/2 grain increments for three different loads and see what happens from there.

    What are your thoughts, opinions and advice based on the above description of events?

    Thanks.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think the sahpe is the same but not the jacket thickness. That is the only way I could think of making them tougher. hence the higher pressures?
     
  4. 300winnie

    300winnie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    133
    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Re: 180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    Pop,

    I think you are right. I am going to back off 1.5 grains in .5 increments to see if I can get back the "good ol' days".
     
  5. deerkiller

    deerkiller Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    65
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Re: 180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    It could be toughen'd up by any number of different changes.

    Jacket alloy or jacket thickness and/or rate of taper from heel to tip.

    A change in core metallurgy, from dead soft lead to a hard antimony/tin alloy could have a significant effect on the bullets terminal performance.

    If it's truly NEW & IMPROVED something had to change.

    DK
     
  6. POP

    POP Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,478
    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2001
    Re: 180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    [ QUOTE ]
    It could be toughen'd up by any number of different changes.

    Jacket alloy or jacket thickness and/or rate of taper from heel to tip.

    A change in core metallurgy, from dead soft lead to a hard antimony/tin alloy could have a significant effect on the bullets terminal performance.

    If it's truly NEW & IMPROVED something had to change.

    DK

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I totally agree! The increased pressures made me think of Jacket thickness .
     
  7. 300winnie

    300winnie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    133
    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Re: 180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    So,

    Given the fact that something changed...what do you think the chances are that they will shoot like the old load used to with the same components, loaded the same way with the exception of the powder charge (need to drop it some to get out of the high pressure zone)?
     
  8. POP

    POP Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,478
    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2001
    Re: 180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    [ QUOTE ]
    So,

    Given the fact that something changed...what do you think the chances are that they will shoot like the old load used to with the same components, loaded the same way with the exception of the powder charge (need to drop it some to get out of the high pressure zone)?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    300 Actually your rifle is the only one who can answer that. Sorry bud. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
     
  9. 300winnie

    300winnie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    133
    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Re: 180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    Unfortunately I already knew that answer. I was just hoping someone could give me false hope /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    I am goint to try that methodology and if it doesn't work I am going to: 1) Be pissed at Swift for screwing with things after blowing a lot of powder and bullets to get the originals to work, and 2)Not buy any more Swift bullets because 3) I have a good load with the 200 grain Nosler Accubond for that rifle.

    I guess what I am saying is I am going to load up 9 cartridges .5 grains below the old load, 9 more .5 grains below that and 9 more .5 grains below that. I will shoot 1 of each at three seperate targets until I have a three shot group in each target. If one or more of the groups show promise I will keep going, if not I'm done and the remainder can crack rocks /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
     
  10. deerkiller

    deerkiller Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    65
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Re: 180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    If you've got a solid load with a 200gr accubond there's your standard.
    If you can beat it great, if not nothing lost because you still got trigger time.

    Let us know what happens.

    DK
     
  11. 300winnie

    300winnie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    133
    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Re: 180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    Here is the range report:

    Loaded up 27 rounds in the following manner:
    Once fired, neck sized W-W Brass
    Federal 215M Primers
    IMR 4831 - 9 @ 73.0 grains 9 @ 73.5 grains @ 9 @ 74.0 grains
    Swift Scirocco II - 180 grains.

    All measurements (i.e. Compartor, C.O.L.)where the same as the load configured with the original Scirocco.

    Barrel had 13 shots through it prior to this session...same powder, same bullet.

    First group of 3. 73.0 grains. Result - 2.5" group @ 100 yrds.

    Second group of 3. 73.5 grains. Result - 2.75" group @ 100 yrds.

    Third group of 3. 74.0 grains. Result - 1.5" group, vertically strung @ 100 yrds.

    Decided to pursue the last group to see if it was a fluke...it was. Fired two of the three shots set aside for the group and the two were 3.5" apart.

    Came home, pulled the remainder and I will give the remainder to my father-in-law as he thinks they are the greatest thing since sliced bread as all of his groups are one holers /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Oh, wait a minute. One shot does not a group make /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Needless to say, I am done with Scirocco's.
     
  12. POP

    POP Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,478
    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2001
    Re: 180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    Bright side to all this.....

    1. You got to shoot more.
    2. You still have a kick arse load with the Accubonds.
     
  13. 300winnie

    300winnie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    133
    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Re: 180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    Pop,

    Agreed!

    I am going to try the 180 grain version of the Accubond now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
     
  14. re5513

    re5513 Member

    Messages:
    10
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2006
    Re: 180 grain Scirocco II\'s & .300 Winchester Magnum - Perplexed

    I haven't tried the SCIIs but have shot a lot of the SCIs. While it would be true joy to just tweek your load of IMR4831, such expectations would be optimistic at best. In this game, any change can put you pretty close to square 1. In most magnums, achieving a combination of high velocity and sub 1" accuracy is a delicate quest. On thought might be to change your powder to a slower one. You certainly have enough capacity in the 300 Win to go that route. In the new WSMs it is not often available due to the much smaller case capacity. If you ever decide to give it a go in the future, I'd suggest trying RL-22 or RL-25. It's a sad day when the recipe for an accurate load is lost through no fault of our own. More than likely, this won't be the first time.
    re5513