12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH;585HE/700HE, other Big Bores--

Discussion in 'Long Range Shotgun Slug Hunting' started by hubel458, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. hubel458

    hubel458 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    474
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    I'm visiting here to talk about the 12ga From Hell and
    other developements it has led to.Nice site you folks have.
    I'm with a group of experimenters passing on the years of
    info and pictures to all gun nuts around the net, about
    12ga From Hell and other big bores. We have posted some
    round the net about our many ideas we have implemented for
    12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga,28ga,20ga,16ga, and my 585HE/700HE wildcats.

    The idea for the 12ga FH, and the first gun built for it,
    was Rob Garnicks on the AR Forums. In the first picture,
    a heavy duty Borchardt falling block. He has gotten
    1000 gr to 3000 fps in this, a high pressure action.

    Then I and others joined in and set up a big variety
    of guns for the case. The case, a brass case 3.85" long,
    made from BMG brass expanded out with straight sides,
    to take 12ga .729" dia slugs and a 12ga size rim added on.
    Also we get turned brass cases from Rocky Mtn Cart of that
    length and shorter. Many guys used 3.5" cases, as standard
    reamers are available, and 12ga 3.5" guns are available,
    so that they could shoot 3.5" plastic also. Our 3.85" chamber
    and 3.5" will shoot any of the shorter cases.
    In our work we found ways to get over a third more velocity
    in shorter plastic and brass cases using slower powders
    than regular fast shotgun powders. We reloaded fast
    rifle powder, IMR 4759, IMR 4227, in larger amounts
    and got 600gr hard lead slugs over 1800 fps in 24" barrels,
    and were lab tested to be at or under magnum shotgun
    pressures that are used in factory 3.5" loads.


    More pictures, the 2nd showing long brass 12ga FH case with
    regular 12ga case. Other 12ga FH guns are next,3rd Nef Ultra
    heavy barrel with length added, 4th Nef 8ga made by boring
    out heavy barrel 10ga, 5th FBW falling block,my 585HE belted
    case.The FBW has a 20ga 3.5" extra barrel also.
    .And we also worked with 8ga,4ga, in falling blocks, 20ga,16ga
    in break actions, and my wildcat 585HE,700HE in various actions.

    6th picture is our big cartridges from 2 bore on down, in
    order-2bore- 4ga- 8ga- 10ga- 12ga FH- 700HE--700H 3.25- 30-06..
    7th picture is 4bore falling block we built on our design.
    Our 4bore is 1 inch bore.We also helped in getting the barrel
    threads larger in the new large MRC PH bolt action to fit our
    cases like the 700H 3.25" shown in 8th picture in MRC.

    9th picture is an 8bore bolt gun a guy on another forum built
    from scratch.Last is Savage 210 that Bret in MN set up with
    heavy barrel and a recoil reducer put into the hollow stock.
    Shown with boot off so you can see the build. He has gotten
    saboted 500gr slugs over 3000 in this.We will post a bunch
    more info and we welcome your ideas and help. And we'll give
    all the help we can to folks ..Ed Hubel

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  2. ROBSTER

    ROBSTER Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    443
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    SWEET I~M DROOLING ALL OVER THE KEY BOARD
    robster
     

  3. theflyonthewall

    theflyonthewall Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    224
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2011
    Holy farfegnugen!!

    How many people have separated their shoulders so far from shooting these cannons?
     
  4. hubel458

    hubel458 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    474
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    None that we know of. We make guns little heavier
    with double thick pads, and porting. My
    really big ones, thumbhole stocks which
    drop recoil about a quarter.Ed
     
  5. theflyonthewall

    theflyonthewall Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    224
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2011
    Well those are definitely the biggest shouldered-to-fire calibers that I've ever seen. Guess that's the point, eh?....lol.
     
  6. hubel458

    hubel458 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    474
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    More history of firsts, in our 12ga FH and big bore work.

    The first gun of mine to have this case was
    my Savage 210 in first picture with a regular style
    heavy stock. Later changed to thumbhole stock.
    I changed barrel to heavy bull barrel and
    chambered it for the 12ga FH 3.85" long case.

    Second picture is the first NEF 12ga Ultra that we put
    the first 12ga fH case in. I only had to lengthen chamber.
    The same gun now has long barrel and thumbhole stock.

    Third picture is first NEF 10ga heavy barrel that we put
    the 10ga FH in. Gun came with long 30" heavy barrel.

    Fourth picture is the first 8ga test gun we built using the
    super strong 8ga kiln cases with the belt step swaged
    down. It is an Enfield that we reamed out to take the
    case, like the 12ga Mauser 12ga conversions were done.
    And we added extra rear bolt lugs for strength.

    Fifth picture is the 1st gun my 585HE was put in.
    It is an Enfield and gets 750gr bullet 2700 fps.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    And in the vein of old time gun actions, of which are various falling
    blocks, we like them also for the hairy big bores, like the 8bore and
    4bore ones we made over the years, that are pictured above.
    Following are 3 pictures of various parts and processes of making the
    action, using easy to get small parts, lever, trigger, hammer, etc,
    and the action block, breach block from steel blocks in 1st pic.

    Last 2 pictures are the FBW brand falling blocks, one which is the
    Model L that we adapted to the one piece stock and the other is the
    smaller Model S with regular two piece stock. Both are set up with
    my 585HE. I can run full pressure in the 585.

    The Model L, I can switch to a 20ga barrel, 600NE barrel,
    and my 700HE using moderate loads. Last pic is Model L with
    thumb hole stock, and my 585HE case in the action..Ed

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  7. theflyonthewall

    theflyonthewall Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    224
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2011
    What kind of accuracy are you getting at different ranges with these beasts?
     
  8. hubel458

    hubel458 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    474
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    I get 3" -- 3 shots at 50 yds with bad eyes with the
    full bore 600gr and some sabot combinations
    with NEF. Ed
     
  9. theflyonthewall

    theflyonthewall Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    224
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2011
    I'm curious as to what twist rate you guys have settled on. Are you using standard rifled-slug twist rates in the barrels?
     
  10. hubel458

    hubel458 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    474
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    With NEF 12GA Fh 3" group art 50yds with 600gr full bore slug
    and some sabots, with my Enfield 585HE 3-4" at 100yds.
    The NEF twist is 1-35, The Pacnor heavy barrels Rob and I got 1-20.
    I have smooth bores also for testing those slugs made for them.

    Videos--- Youtube blowing up 6gal pail of water -"Grandpa's Cannon"
    "Grandpa's First Shot" 12ga FH -- 610gr HP at 2800-3000.

    We get asked about legality and whether these big cartridges
    are DDs. First of all; all shotgun calibers over 50cal are exempt from
    being classified as DDs under Title 18 GCA Section 921....
    And it doesn't matter what exciting or promo name we call them,
    the barrels are still marked for gauge. They can be called 12ga 3 Inch
    Super Magnum, 12ga Goose Magnum, 12ga From hell, 12ga 3.5 Express,
    12ga Hammerhead, etc, they still are a 12ga case of some length.
    And length doesn't matter as long as shorter cases, with straight
    sides, and same 12ga(or whatever gauge)base size fit and fire in
    longer chambers. IE; 2.5, 2.75, and 3" firing in 3.5", and all of these
    firing in our 3.85" longer chamber. IE; you can't take 37mm cannon
    shell and neck it to 12ga and have an automatically exempt 12ga
    cartridge, as other shorter 12 gauges would not fit/fire in chamber,
    and you'd have to get it exempt as sporting. How-
    Under the same Section any other over 50cal non-shotgun
    cartridge can be classified as Exempt For Sporting Use by
    applying for the exemption, like I have done for my cases,and many
    others(JDJ-AHR-Etc) have done, as well as cases already sporting
    from the old days. Now as for hunting rules in shotgun areas,
    game depts may say that you can't use long range spitzer bullets
    but must use traditional blunt slugs, for safety. Hunting rules are
    varied all over the place.Ed
     
  11. theflyonthewall

    theflyonthewall Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    224
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2011
    "The NEF twist is 1-35, The Pacnor heavy barrels Rob and I got 1-20.
    I have smooth bores also for testing those slugs made for them."

    Does the twist rate seem to make any accuracy difference when using the short, blunt slugs? I know it can make a tremendous difference in the stability of a spitzer-type bullet. But I wonder if the bigger differences aren't in the length-to-diameter ratio?
     
  12. hatfield954

    hatfield954 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    125
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2011
    You must have a real qualified surgeon to put you back together. The recoil from those has got to be monstrous. Or you are butting the stocks up against a real strong tree when you squeeze the trigger.
     
  13. hubel458

    hubel458 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    474
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    With short 12a slugs up to 750 gr 1 to35 works good at our
    faster speeds Now rolling them out the barrel at 1000 the
    ones heavier than an oz will wobble/tumble.
    The1 to 20 handles 1500 gr ok at decent speed.

    Recoil--The guns are weighted according as the power goes up.
    And double thick pads. Bigger ones ported. My16lb NEF can do some real
    hairy loads and not be worse than a turkey magnum
    load in a 6-7 lb gun that guys use them in all the time.Ed
     
  14. hubel458

    hubel458 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    474
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    Now some info on cases and slugs
    The 50 BMG brass can be made into some real
    great cartridges, our 12ga FH, shown first, showing
    cases with rim turned off and threaded; and the 12ga rim
    pieces to be screwed on, with finished cases shown.
    And 2nd making my 700HE showing original BMG case,
    case with belt only, and then expanded out to 700cal.
    This makes a super strong big bore case, as I have
    fired some 25 times and case is still good.And
    it in my big Vulcan bolt gun gets a 1000gr to 3200.

    3rd picture shows our 4bore/ga case with slugs, and
    the 20mm case we make them from. They match the 4bore
    turned cases that are used in the Ken Owen doubles.
    4th the Rocky Mtn Cartridge, 12ga turned 3.5" cases
    with variety of slugs and sabots.In picture first loaded
    one is BPI sabot, then 730gr Dixie, then 600gr Dixie,
    then RG Henson's solid nose and his hollowpoint.
    RMC can make cases any length and any gauge.
    5th shows a 12ga FH and 10ga FH we made using steel
    basecups taken from 12 and 10 ga cases. We turned down
    bases a few thousands of the original brass cases
    and epoxied the bases. Used BMG case s for 12ga and
    50cal Russian for 10ga.This research came from a
    another forum poster, like over half of what we do.Ed

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    More pictures of 12ga slugs and saboted slugs.
    1st The US-S sabot/slug, with the green locked on base,
    along with others.The US-S slug is nearly as accurate
    in smoothbores, for which it is made, as sabots are
    in rifled. those pictured are heavier than most other
    brands of saboted slugs.

    2nd a Jacketed 730gr by RG Henson and a hard,heat treated
    600gr by Dixie Slugs in FL, both full bore slugs,
    3rd a BPI sabot with hardcast 440gr, .504"
    diameter slug. BPIs were intended to use .500" bullets
    used in 500S&W, the little larger ones we use seem
    little more accurate.Makes tighter fit in rifled barrels.
    4th other sabots we tested , 5th brass turned slugs
    and there are many other slugs/sabots we'll show..Ed


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]