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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
115g VLD Berger for deer?
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<blockquote data-quote="Fiftydriver" data-source="post: 35300" data-attributes="member: 10"><p>Chris,</p><p></p><p>A accept your point of view and agree to a point. With the proper bullet placed in the right location, the 223 will certainly harvest deer at 400 yards, as will the 243 AI at 1000 yards.</p><p></p><p>Your statement that others limitations do not influence your opinion is beside the point.</p><p></p><p>My arguement is that I have yet to see a 25-06 rifle shoot a long range designed bullet accurately enough for extreme range hunting.</p><p></p><p>It is a matter of improper bullet used with the incorrect riflign twist.</p><p></p><p>No matter what the range, the rifle hasto be able to shoot accurately first and formost. This is the most limiting factor with the 25-06 using VLD bullets of 115 grs and larger. They simply are not a real accurate combination.</p><p></p><p>Just as important as knowing ones personal limitations is knowing the limitations of the equipment they are using.</p><p></p><p>I do not see a nessesity in having a magnum round for extreme range shooting. In fact for 1000 yard chucking, I prefer my 6mm-284 with its 107 gr MK loaded to 3550 fps. With this load and rifle, I would take shots on deer size game out to 1000 yards with no problems at all because the rifle will easily hold 1/2 moa out to that range in ideal shooting conditions.</p><p></p><p>That said, for shooting out to 1500 and 2000 yards, we need velocity and high B.C. to keep bullet speed above supersonic levels or there is no chance for accurate shooting. A 223 or 243 or even 25-06 will not drive their heaviest, highest B.C. bullets fast enough to stay super sonic at 2000 yards.</p><p></p><p>This is where the larger rounds certainly have their place over the smaller rounds, not to mention trying to spot an 80 gr or 105-107 gr bullets impact at +1500 yards is basically impossible whereas a 300 gr, .338" is easily spotted.</p><p></p><p>Just because a vertain round will deliever a certain bullet on game at a certain distance, doen not mean that it is the correct choice for using at that distance and on a certain size of game.</p><p></p><p>My opinion is still that using the 223 on deer size game at 400 yards is fool hardy. Hell a 22-250 is head and shoulders above the level of performance that the 223 is and the 22-6mm AI's I have been building make the swift look pretty tame, beating the old speed king by at least 250 fps in same langth barrels.</p><p></p><p>And with no recoil out of a sporter weight rifle.</p><p></p><p>This is my point, WHY, use marginal rounds when there are so many better options so easily attainable without going to magnums or even the bigger bore like the 30 and 338 rounds.</p><p></p><p>Are you telling me the 223 and 243 are fully up to the game taking ability of the 6.5-284 and 6.5-06 AI?</p><p></p><p>If you are then I fear you are being dishonest with yourself. And anyone can easily shoot these rounds well past 1000 yards with a little practice.</p><p></p><p>Claims like your 223 stories always throw up the red flags in my mind.</p><p></p><p>My only question to you is WHY would you select that round. Because you can is not a good reason in my mind.</p><p></p><p>THe 243 AI can at least be loaded with quality bullets of desent S.D. and very good B.C.'s as well as generate pretty good velocity, the 223 combined with the 75-80 gr VLD bullets are at best sluggish at extended range.</p><p></p><p>Sure you can hit some impressively distant targets with the little 223 but again, WHY?</p><p></p><p>Hope you don't take offense to my post, as you said, just my opinion and you have yoursm I jsut do not disagree.</p><p></p><p>I do agree this is a location foro long range hunters to gather and share information. It is also an area where new shooters learn the basics and hearing an obviously experienced long range hunter say the 223 is as good as anything out to 400 yards is a disservice to them in my opinion.</p><p></p><p>For the record, I strong feel the 223 is not a long range or even medium game round in any form. In the 224 family alone it is low powered round.</p><p></p><p>Good Shooting!!</p><p></p><p>Kirby Allen(50)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fiftydriver, post: 35300, member: 10"] Chris, A accept your point of view and agree to a point. With the proper bullet placed in the right location, the 223 will certainly harvest deer at 400 yards, as will the 243 AI at 1000 yards. Your statement that others limitations do not influence your opinion is beside the point. My arguement is that I have yet to see a 25-06 rifle shoot a long range designed bullet accurately enough for extreme range hunting. It is a matter of improper bullet used with the incorrect riflign twist. No matter what the range, the rifle hasto be able to shoot accurately first and formost. This is the most limiting factor with the 25-06 using VLD bullets of 115 grs and larger. They simply are not a real accurate combination. Just as important as knowing ones personal limitations is knowing the limitations of the equipment they are using. I do not see a nessesity in having a magnum round for extreme range shooting. In fact for 1000 yard chucking, I prefer my 6mm-284 with its 107 gr MK loaded to 3550 fps. With this load and rifle, I would take shots on deer size game out to 1000 yards with no problems at all because the rifle will easily hold 1/2 moa out to that range in ideal shooting conditions. That said, for shooting out to 1500 and 2000 yards, we need velocity and high B.C. to keep bullet speed above supersonic levels or there is no chance for accurate shooting. A 223 or 243 or even 25-06 will not drive their heaviest, highest B.C. bullets fast enough to stay super sonic at 2000 yards. This is where the larger rounds certainly have their place over the smaller rounds, not to mention trying to spot an 80 gr or 105-107 gr bullets impact at +1500 yards is basically impossible whereas a 300 gr, .338" is easily spotted. Just because a vertain round will deliever a certain bullet on game at a certain distance, doen not mean that it is the correct choice for using at that distance and on a certain size of game. My opinion is still that using the 223 on deer size game at 400 yards is fool hardy. Hell a 22-250 is head and shoulders above the level of performance that the 223 is and the 22-6mm AI's I have been building make the swift look pretty tame, beating the old speed king by at least 250 fps in same langth barrels. And with no recoil out of a sporter weight rifle. This is my point, WHY, use marginal rounds when there are so many better options so easily attainable without going to magnums or even the bigger bore like the 30 and 338 rounds. Are you telling me the 223 and 243 are fully up to the game taking ability of the 6.5-284 and 6.5-06 AI? If you are then I fear you are being dishonest with yourself. And anyone can easily shoot these rounds well past 1000 yards with a little practice. Claims like your 223 stories always throw up the red flags in my mind. My only question to you is WHY would you select that round. Because you can is not a good reason in my mind. THe 243 AI can at least be loaded with quality bullets of desent S.D. and very good B.C.'s as well as generate pretty good velocity, the 223 combined with the 75-80 gr VLD bullets are at best sluggish at extended range. Sure you can hit some impressively distant targets with the little 223 but again, WHY? Hope you don't take offense to my post, as you said, just my opinion and you have yoursm I jsut do not disagree. I do agree this is a location foro long range hunters to gather and share information. It is also an area where new shooters learn the basics and hearing an obviously experienced long range hunter say the 223 is as good as anything out to 400 yards is a disservice to them in my opinion. For the record, I strong feel the 223 is not a long range or even medium game round in any form. In the 224 family alone it is low powered round. Good Shooting!! Kirby Allen(50) [/QUOTE]
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115g VLD Berger for deer?
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