Hogs in Texas

In Southern California we have had a bunch of mountain lions, bobcats, and coyotes suffer and die from mange(and a host of other internal injuries) associated with Warfarin et all. It is in their system and the suspected entry route is poisoned rodents. I'm sure plenty of raptors have gotten their share as well as dogs and cats. Once you put in in the ecosystem it is going to trickle down and spread everywhere, like it or not there is no way around it even if used "correctly".
A simple google search;
https://www.google.com/search?site=...b..2.17.2268...0j0i131k1j33i160k1.aWS7ZDVepqY

Mange is caused by Warfarin????

Capt. D said:

"Try paying for a few hundred or thousand acres and then get back with us."

How the FU#$ do you think I got my property, it **** sure wasn't given to me!!! That's kind of a bold statement for someone that knows not of what they speak.

Click to expand...

When it appears you know not of which you are speaking about it's easy for the ready to draw conclusions.

When you are relying on your property to pay for itself the equation is 100% different than it is for the guy who's inherited his property or buying it with investment capital he doesn't need to live.

I've watched good farmers and ranchers lose family farms/ranches due to drought, disease, etc to be so judgemental. I've also paid for four of them myself and managed to do it through the worst two droughts of the last 250 years so I have some idea of that which I speak.

Captain D,
Dude, I was involved with the study for about four months and am amazed at the "experts" that know more than the people that did the study.

The poison was just another tool to use to control hogs. It's not the total answer and it's not for everyone or every situation. But when used like the label says it was effective. I didn't lose any cattle or see any dead non target animals on any of my places where it was used. I was there almost every day. It is one fifth as strong as rat poison.

No where in the label does it say anything about a suffering or peaceful death.

Coy Franks said:

Captain D,
Dude, I was involved with the study for about four months and am amazed at the "experts" that know more than the people that did the study.

The poison was just another tool to use to control hogs. It's not the total answer and it's not for everyone or every situation. But when used like the label says it was effective. I didn't lose any cattle or see any dead non target animals on any of my places where it was used. I was there almost every day. It is one fifth as strong as rat poison.

No where in the label does it say anything about a suffering or peaceful death.

Click to expand...

Coy the "experts who ran the study" have sold us a lot of really bad science in the name of selling products for a hundred years, maybe more.

Until you have decades of data it's a crapshoot.

One day in a discussion in an environmental science class I got perhaps one of the best pieces of advice. We were discussing various studies giving widely different conclusions on a subject and I asked the Professor, "so how do we decide what studies are and aren't valid when they all claim to use good date and methodologies"?
He said, "look at who did it, who paid for it, and if they have anything to sell".

he said a lot with that one short sentence.

Wedgy said:

In Southern California we have had a bunch of mountain lions, bobcats, and coyotes suffer and die from mange(and a host of other internal injuries) associated with Warfarin et all. It is in their system and the suspected entry route is poisoned rodents. I'm sure plenty of raptors have gotten their share as well as dogs and cats. Once you put in in the ecosystem it is going to trickle down and spread everywhere, like it or not there is no way around it even if used "correctly".
A simple google search;
https://www.google.com/search?site=...b..2.17.2268...0j0i131k1j33i160k1.aWS7ZDVepqY

Click to expand...

Warfarin is the same chemically as the Coumadin (blood thinner) transplant recipients take for the reduction of blood clots. It is also prescribed for other conditions from which blood clots re likely to result.

Death is caused by internal bleeding.

I have a hard time seeing how it can cause mange.

Mange is caused by an overreaction to the spittle of the mange mite and sometimes fleas. Severe mange generally results from a long term overreaction combined with secondary bacterial and/or fungal infections.

The common denominator is all of them are on the fringe of the city eating poisoned rodents, they all have warfarin in their systems so they are not healthy, and are stressed enough that their immune system can't fight off mange.

Wedgy said:

The common denominator is all of them are on the fringe of the city eating poisoned rodents, they all have warfarin in their systems so they are not healthy, and are stressed enough that their immune system can't fight off mange.

Click to expand...

Incorrect. It's not about fighting off mange, the mange mites are normally present in all canines and cats.

It is only when they develop an autoimmune disorder overreacting to the spittle of the mites that you have a diseased animal condition.

Eating garbage tainted with all sorts of chemicals could contribute to it but on any given year we see a percentage of very rural predators with it.

I have yet to ever see it in either domestic or wild pigs though. When they look terrible it's generally going to be due to an explosion of hog lice and ticks. Their only defense is to suffocate them in mud and then rub the dried mud off against trees which is awfully hard on their hair.

I don't see any research that indicates warfarin could be causative but if you have links to some I'll read it.

A simple google search can turn up tons of links;
"Serieys' research at UCLA and with the National Park Service (NPS) was instrumental in discovering that bobcats are dying from mange infections brought on by a toxic build-up of household rodent poisons."(not in Texas, here by UCLA)

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/grad-student-seeks-to-save-bobcats-237331

"In California, 70% of mammals from across the State in a 2002 study were found exposed to anticoagulants. In southern California, our recent work has found that a shocking 92% of bobcats tested are exposed to anticoagulants for samples collected between 1996-2012."

Side effects of Coumadin;


Last reviewed on RxList 9/7/2016
Stop using warfarin and call your doctor at once if you have a serious side effect such as:

• pain, swelling, hot or cold feeling, skin changes, or discoloration anywhere on your body;
• sudden and severe leg or foot pain, foot ulcer, purple toes or fingers;
• sudden headache, dizziness, or weakness;
• unusual bleeding (nose, mouth, vagina, or rectum), bleeding from wounds or needle injections, any bleeding that will not stop;
• easy bruising, purple or red pinpoint spots under your skin;
• blood in your urine, black or bloody stools, coughing up blood or vomit that looks like coffee grounds;
• pale skin, feeling light-headed or short of breath, rapid heart rate, trouble concentrating;
• dark urine, jaundice (yellowing of the skin or eyes);
• pain in your stomach, back, or sides;
• urinating less than usual or not at all;
• numbness or muscle weakness; or
• any illness with diarrhea, fever, chills, body aches, or flu symptoms.

Shameful. It is a POISON and should never have been considered.

WildRose said:

Coy the "experts who ran the study" have sold us a lot of really bad science in the name of selling products for a hundred years, maybe more.

Until you have decades of data it's a crapshoot.

One day in a discussion in an environmental science class I got perhaps one of the best pieces of advice. We were discussing various studies giving widely different conclusions on a subject and I asked the Professor, "so how do we decide what studies are and aren't valid when they all claim to use good date and methodologies"?
He said, "look at who did it, who paid for it, and if they have anything to sell".

he said a lot with that one short sentence.

Click to expand...

From the article, you would think the only cause of mange is notoedric mange. Sarcoptic mange is an introduced Old World mange that was hoped to kill off the wolf populations. It didn't and has spread across the US. It has been documented with population decline, until the population stabilizes.

Going back to the fraud issue, I wonder if the Captain considers it fraud to charge hunters for hunting deer and to claim insurance for deer damage as well. I do respect that it is his opinion, but find it outlandish in that his definition of fraud doesn't fit with any sort of legal or insurance definition of fraud. In other words, the folks that regularly work with the concept and deal with its ramifications, and those most potentially hurt by it (insurance companies), don't consider it to be fraud, so it really isn't. It could be considered potentially unethical, maybe immoral, but not illegal and fraud in this case, would be illegal if it was fraud, which it apparently isn't.

I've stated this before with not so welcome replies. I to find it crazy how many farmers can complain so heavily about hogs and how someone needs to help them. If you want help you should be willing to let people hunt or trap. For the longest time I was ok with them turning people down because again it is the farmers right. They don't want things to be shot that are not hogs. So I went ahead and purchased a insurance policy for 1 million dollars to hopefully set some people at ease about property damage. But wouldn't you know they still said no because how do you collect on that insurance? Now do t get me wrong it's not all farmers that's for sure but when you are from a different state and all you hear is complaining about a problem but a guy like myself cannot even go after some pigs without it costing about $200 a pig it's hard to feel bad. My family and most around me farm and we have deer that do do damage so I do understand. I still feel farmers have the right to deny anyone which they do but don't whine about damage. I also don't believe it's Friday to claim insurance because that is what it is for and in a free market that insurance also has the right to drop the insured anytime. So claim damage enough and risk getting drop.
It's a difficult problem with no good answer because we all know someone we would not let hunt our land but it's to bad the good respectful hunters get the shaft. I just want a spot to hunt with my father and brother once a year that won't cost us more than a good whitetail hunt.

morning, welcome to TX. politics. ur average hunter is not going
to pay $100 per hog or $1.00lb. extra for a hog weighting
over a 100lbs. hunting hogs and coyotes is my passion. deer
come in my yard. TUM down is south TX. they use Helo's

morning, Yes I will shoot a coyote before anything!!! TUM