Your pick 7mm

[Broz]

you can work 180 gr loads up to almost 3100.

or loaded up to out pound a 300 win mag. its about choosing the right bullet off of strength and capability

Could you please support these statements with some facts from your personal experience?

I have never gotten a 7 Rem to 3100 with a 180 and would like to know what you used to do so.

Also, what load (bullet weight , powder and muzzle velocity and distance) will "out pound" a 300 win with a 215 Berger loaded to 3035 fps with H-1000. I have seen 3050 across an Oehler 35 and Magneto speed and my drops are on to a mile and all between, with my data. So I would like to ask you to support with facts. I have seen you post this info several times so I would like to see how this works, and to what distance it holds water, if it does.

Thanks
Jeff

 

[MontanaRifleman]

or loaded up to out pound a 300 win mag.

Baloney.... the above is what Jeff was referring to.

I own two 7 RM's and have loaded for them and used one of them to hunt with for 15 years until I burned the barrel out, armchair breath. I shot lot's of critters with including elk. Then I went out and bought a 300 Mag.

Considering my max velocities (and I'm a red line kinda guy) using Retumbo and RL17 pushing 160 AB's were 3100 and 3150 in a 24" barrel. For you to be pushing 180's to 3100, you must have been using a really long barrel and really pushing that pressure curve.

That said, Jeff pushed 215's @ 3050 in his 28" WM which have a greater BC and weight than 180's. So just how do you make that statement?

 

[idaho elk hunter]

I used Retumbo and Vita Vouri powders. The ONLY Primer that will work with this combination is the Win Mag Primer. The 2 bullets used are the 180 JLK and A Rocky Mountain Bullet. Rockys are great bullets and I primarily use these but you must set your own BC. ROCKYS OUT PERFORM BERGERS HANDS DOWN! I find the Rocky BC not to work for me. The barrel is a Bartlien 5r in Left hand twist and it is a progressive twist to my own liking. I will tell you it starts out slow and ends up at 1 in 8.5. I will tell you at EXTREME ranges the left twist does help. I electropolish the bore (similar to the defunct Du Pont Blackstar)and coat all of my bullets with a non moly coating. Just like Barnes has done this in the past. he rifle is set up with free bore that works for each bullet either the JLK or the Rocky. Barrel length is 32 inches without the Brake. I ONLY USE WEATHERBY ACTIONS for the larger 378/460 class cartridge. I used a new bolt to fit the case head size, This bolt is not commercially avail and has to be made. This enables one to seat the bullet further out and gives one a longer magazine to do so. I agree this is a lot of work and money for this type of weapon but I can push this bullet a lot more if I wanted to. I GUARENTEE one could EASILY match this performance in a standard length action and for a lot less money. If one wanted to have the longer coal they could even use the 8mm Rem chassis. the 3100 fps quote is actually down loaded a bit. Several people are doing a 7mm mag at 3050 with Retumbo in a 26 in barrel and Standard Mag action. John Lazzeroni is the one setting the pace for thinking out of the box and using coating and unconventional building techniques. Everyone doubted him and found out that he is a GREAT manufacturer with valid velocity and energy claims. It is going to take this out of the box thinking to propel this industry to the next level. Everyone is shooting the same technology and has the same recommendations for the same problems. Same Big name bullets and same, same, same,ETC. Let push the envelope with NEW! Roy Weatherby Did this and John Lazzeroni is doing this. Let us try our own ways and share them so we can get out of this rut and go forward! That's why I am a member of this forum, to get new ideas!

 

[Greg Duerr]

I dont think Im stirring the pot seems like there are a lot of guys out there that enjoy giving their input on the subject. We all have an opinion and we all love telling someone what it is. If you think its stirring the pot dont make a comment. For the rest of us if nice hearing each persons opinons and experiances.


Billings Mt There was a 49 year of Teacher that Raped a 14 year old girl at the school he taught at..................the judge sentenced him to 30 day ...............

 

[MontanaRifleman]

So basically your performance is out of a Hot Rod rifle. If you used a Hot Rod 300 WM you would also see better performance.

When you are comparing same barrel specs, the 300 WM will push a 215 at least as fast as a 7 RM will push a 180.

Some facts about ballistic physics... If you were to neck up a 7 RM to 308, it would push a 180 gr bullet faster than the 7 RM could push a 180 gr bullet. That is a fact of life and physics. The 7mm bullet would have higher BC, but the 30/7 RM would have the initial jump in performance. The 30/7 RM will be able to push a significantly heavier bullet at same velocity as the 7 RM.

The 300 WM is exactly the same cartridge as the 7 RM only .150 longer with 8% more case capacity. The external ballistics between the 2 will be similar but the WM has a clear advantage. In terminal ballistics, the WM has an even greater advantage... period. It pushes a a larger cal bullet with 20% more mass with a higher BC down range, and the farther down range they get the more the advantage grows because of the higher BC.

The idea that the 7 RM can out perform the 300 WM is pure myth. And I'm not just an armchair internet jockey with no 7 RM experience.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I dont think Im stirring the pot seems like there are a lot of guys out there that enjoy giving their input on the subject. We all have an opinion and we all love telling someone what it is. If you think its stirring the pot dont make a comment. For the rest of us if nice hearing each persons opinons and experiances.


Billings Mt There was a 49 year of Teacher that Raped a 14 year old girl at the school he taught at..................the judge sentenced him to 30 day ...............

I'll give you an overview of Montana politics. The Rep/Dem distribution is almost equal. That said, Republicans and Dems in Montana are not like other Republicans and Dems in other parts of the country. There is a strong libertarian mindset in both parties with some leaning more liberal and some more conservative. That said there are plenty of flaming liberals in the university towns and the Native American population votes 99% liberal.

As for the case you mention, I'm not familiar with it. Just guessing, but based on the sentence, the "rape" may have been consensual since any sex between a minor and an adult is legally considered "rape". If the sex was not consensual, the sentence would be outrageous. IMO, violent rapists should receive the death penalty and If I had a daughter who was violently raped I would be inclined to carry it out if justice was not served.

Not withstanding, we have more than our fair share of appointed liberal fed judges.

As for the pot stirring... well, that's what it looks like from my view. You have already beat this topic to death in other threads of various flavors.

 

[MudRunner2005]

So basically your performance is out of a Hot Rod rifle. If you used a Hot Rod 300 WM you would also see better performance.

When you are comparing same barrel specs, the 300 WM will push a 215 at least as fast as a 7 RM will push a 180.

Some facts about ballistic physics... If you were to neck up a 7 RM to 308, it would push a 180 gr bullet faster than the 7 RM could push a 180 gr bullet. That is a fact of life and physics. The 7mm bullet would have higher BC, but the 30/7 RM would have the initial jump in performance. The 30/7 RM will be able to push a significantly heavier bullet at same velocity as the 7 RM.

The 300 WM is exactly the same cartridge as the 7 RM only .150 longer with 8% more case capacity. The external ballistics between the 2 will be similar but the WM has a clear advantage. In terminal ballistics, the WM has an even greater advantage... period. It pushes a a larger cal bullet with 20% more mass with a higher BC down range, and the farther down range they get the more the advantage grows because of the higher BC.

The idea that the 7 RM can out perform the 300 WM is pure myth. And I'm not just an armchair internet jockey with no 7 RM experience.

I think me and you have hashed this out before.....As I have experience with both calibers, as well (even though I don't own a .300 WM...Yet), my buddy has one that I reload for, and I've shot it a ton. They are both excellent calibers in their own right, and for their own intended purposes. Both are fairly close in ability to one another with the heavy weight bullets for their respective calibers, but when comparing the 215 Hybrid to the 180 VLD or 180 Hybrid, unfortunately facts are facts, and the .300 takes it. I am a huge 7mm fan, but you can't change ballstic facts.

Ballistically, the .300 WM wins...But not by much. Alot of people underestimate the 7mm calibers. They are VERY efficient bullet-wise. Just take a look at the .280 AI vs the 7mm RM. The .280 AI uses 20g less powder, and is only 150fps slower than the 7 RM. The 7RM & 300 WM use about 5-10gr powder difference, and they are both very good calibers for LR hunting. And when compared with the powder capacity differences with the 180 VLD vs 215 Hybrid in the .300, they are very close in muzzle velocity. The 215 being slightly heavier will hit a little harder and carry the weight farther.

 

[Broz]

I can tell you the 7mm Rem is hard to beat. Some loading books have it loaded down to 7-08 velocities and you can work 180 gr loads up to almost 3100. It can be downloaded to be great for a small child or loaded up to out pound a 300 win mag. its about choosing the right bullet off of strength and capability ( not BC) and shot placement. !

Here you were talking about a 7mm Rem. So support this statement above about the 7mm Rem, not your all out hotrod. Hell if you want to talk hot rods then don't compare to a 300 win., use a hopped up 30 like a 30-378, 300 RUM, or 30 /338 lapua AI. variation sending a 230 Berger over 3200. That will pound the living shitz out of any 7 you dream about.

Jeff

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I think me and you have hashed this out before.....As I have experience with both calibers, as well (even though I don't own a .300 WM...Yet), my buddy has one that I reload for, and I've shot it a ton. They are both excellent calibers in their own right, and for their own intended purposes. Both are fairly close in ability to one another with the heavy weight bullets for their respective calibers, but when comparing the 215 Hybrid to the 180 VLD or 180 Hybrid, unfortunately facts are facts, and the .300 takes it. I am a huge 7mm fan, but you can't change ballstic facts.

Ballistically, the .300 WM wins...But not by much. Alot of people underestimate the 7mm calibers. They are VERY efficient bullet-wise. Just take a look at the .280 AI vs the 7mm RM. The .280 AI uses 20g less powder, and is only 150fps slower than the 7 RM. The 7RM & 300 WM use about 5-10gr powder difference, and they are both very good calibers for LR hunting. And when compared with the powder capacity differences with the 180 VLD vs 215 Hybrid in the .300, they are very close in muzzle velocity. The 215 being slightly heavier will hit a little harder and carry the weight farther.

External ballistics is close, terminal ballistics not so close. I don't consider 20% difference close.

Anytime you increase case capacity and powder charge you loose efficiency. A 7 RM is more efficient than a 7 RUM and a 7-08 is more efficient than a 7 RM (EDIT). However, bigger is bigger, and more powder = more force. Bullet efficiency is determined by form factor and SD.

My favorite rifles/cartridges are my 223, 22-250 and 6-284. They are "more" fun/sweet to shoot than my bigger guns. But I know the differences and capabilities & limitations of each.

 

[MudRunner2005]

External ballistics is close, terminal ballistics not so close. I don't consider 20% difference close.

Anytime you increase case capacity and powder charge you loose efficiency. A 7 RM is more efficient than a 7 RUM and a 7-08 is more efficient than a 7-08. However, bigger is bigger, and more powder = more force. Bullet efficiency is determined by form factor and SD.

My favorite rifles/cartridges are my 223, 22-250 and 6-284. They are "more" fun/sweet to shoot than my bigger guns. But I know the differences and capabilities & limitations of each.

Agreed. I think it would be fun to finish designing my .22 caliber wildcat...It oughtta be a barrel-burner for sure. But I bet it will be one nasty coyote killin machine. Might even make a good whitetail round for sub-500 yard shots.

I'm just still waiting to hear back from my guy who is doing my QuickDesigning, till I can get the spare cash to purchase the program myself.

 

[idaho elk hunter]

Here you were talking about a 7mm Rem. So support this statement above about the 7mm Rem, not your all out hotrod. Hell if you want to talk hot rods then don't compare to a 300 win., use a hopped up 30 like a 30-378, 300 RUM, or 30 /338 lapua AI. variation sending a 230 Berger over 3200. That will pound the living shitz out of any 7 you dream about.

Jeff

I dream about the new Berger 195gr coming out and applying my building techniques to a 7mmRUM. It will pound any 30cal out there. Some refer to what I build as hot rods I believe they are built the way the factories should manufacture them. I am usually 2 yrs out on new order builds due to this. Imagine factory sammi cartridges that outperform the CHEY TAC wildcats when built my way.
I do prefer the 7mm over other calibers due to the BC and the sectional density that they offer but there is another whole other process of manufacturing a bullet that no one has ever written about and talks about on this forum. It is the forming process of the bullet. Brian Litz and others at Berger and Sierra have found out about this many years ago. Trust me when I say the 30 will not do as good as the 7mm. I don't believe the BC as stated earlier off of bullet manufactures. Heck it was a few years ago when people just started to figure out the G7 BC. The next step people will learn about is the form factor. This is where the 7mm really shines. It even out does my favorite cal the .338. Even though the 338 and the 30 Berger have a higher BC the form factor is lower. This makes them with the other parts of the equation being equal not quite as efficient as the 7mm. I am unbiased in opinions. I rely strictly on science and mathematics. For those that argue PLEASE GET BRIAN LITZ and SIERRA and HORNADY etc to chine in. I am not here to argue with anyone but I do hope that people do search out what I say and maybe learn and expand there horizons from it. Our sport can only get better from us learning what to demand from manufacturers.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I dream about the new Berger 195gr coming out and applying my building techniques to a 7mmRUM. It will pound any 30cal out there. Some refer to what I build as hot rods I believe they are built the way the factories should manufacture them. I am usually 2 yrs out on new order builds due to this. Imagine factory sammi cartridges that outperform the CHEY TAC wildcats when built my way.
I do prefer the 7mm over other calibers due to the BC and the sectional density that they offer but there is another whole other process of manufacturing a bullet that no one has ever written about and talks about on this forum. It is the forming process of the bullet. Brian Litz and others at Berger and Sierra have found out about this many years ago. Trust me when I say the 30 will not do as good as the 7mm. I don't believe the BC as stated earlier off of bullet manufactures. Heck it was a few years ago when people just started to figure out the G7 BC. The next step people will learn about is the form factor. This is where the 7mm really shines. It even out does my favorite cal the .338. Even though the 338 and the 30 Berger have a higher BC the form factor is lower. This makes them with the other parts of the equation being equal not quite as efficient as the 7mm. I am unbiased in opinions. I rely strictly on science and mathematics. For those that argue PLEASE GET BRIAN LITZ and SIERRA and HORNADY etc to chine in. I am not here to argue with anyone but I do hope that people do search out what I say and maybe learn and expand there horizons from it. Our sport can only get better from us learning what to demand from manufacturers.

You don't get it... we're not criticizing the way you build your rifle. We are pointing out that you are not comparing apples to apples. You're gun is a hot rod, meaning you have done things to increase its performance over the regular street car. If you do things to hot rod the 30 cal, results will be similar. Get it???

On form factors, it is just a matter of design and SD. When you start getting up to the 338 cal bullets, the cup and core bullets become more difficult to increase form factor because the lead core is so much more massive in comparison to the thin Jacket. When comparing form factor between the 7 and 30, twist and economics becomes a factor. The 230 hybrid is on the edge in a 10 twist bore. To increase the form factor requires an increase of twist and there are precious few 9 twist 30 cal barrels out there.

Now, when you step up to the bigger cals, the monolithic bullets become more efficient in form factor. I seriously doubt you will come anywhere near a 375 ChetTac launching a 425 gr projectile with a BC of 1.0 @ 3200 fps. Bigger is better.

When the 195 EOL comes out, I think you will find there will be a compromise in form factor. You can't just keeping stretching a bullet and expect it to fly right. You will see the bearing surface growing longer than the nose grows.

You put your 7 RUM up against my 300 RUM with the same barrel (apples to apples) and my 300 will launch the 230 at a greater velocity than you launch the 195 and close to the same velocity you can launch the 180, but with a much better BC.

 

[Greg Duerr]

I asked the question everyone else beat it to death but then thats why we are all here. If we all shot the same Caliber and had the same views and experiances this sight would have faded away. Thats what makes if fun, long after we are all gone people will, hopefully, still be sitting around campfires discussing all of this again.

The Judge rulled that their was consensual sex and that the 14 year old was aware of what was happening. However 49 and 14, the mother of the 14 year old when hearing the sentence had to be romoved from the court room as she kept yelling "this sucks" I dont blame her .........since her daughter committed suicide two years later. As for the judge and the teacher they should have been stung up that night. I dont know what its going to take to take back our country, I have a feeling that its pretty much gone and there is no turning back.......

We have "Burning Man" gonig on in our area.................40,000 people that get to gether out on the plya and do what ever they want ..............you can't even imagine what goes on out there. I have never been out there but people who have say that your imagination cant comprehend the vile filth that goes on.
Those of us on this sight are a dying breed and our time enjoying what we love is almost over.

G

 

[Edd]

When the 195 EOL comes out, I think you will find there will be a compromise in form factor. You can't just keeping stretching a bullet and expect it to fly right. You will see the bearing surface growing longer than the nose grows.

The 195 gr bullet has a shorter bearing surface than the 180 VLD.