the 5.56 vs 308 debate

[timmay]

I keep seeing all these debates online about which is better for the (sigh) "SHTF" scenario.
Most people say 5.56 because of CQB and clearing houses, and for "zombies" (whatever that means) because its lighter and less noise. (I have a 20" ar-15 and out in the open it will deafen me without hearing protection, so a 12" ar-15 for cqb would be even worse, so sound is no argument.) 5.56 and 308 are both deafening without hearing protection

What I have to say is that who the heck is going to be going around "house clearing" in that situation or even in any non "shtf" situation?
Also CQB? against who? the "zombies"?

I dont think people understand what a real life "SHTF" situation is going to be. If it does happen it is most likely going to be the government coming down on us.
So all your "battles" are going to most likely be between you/us and cops/governmental agents..not against harmless people roving about looking for food...(maybe these are the so called zombies?)

So in a real all hell breaks loose scenario and the unconstitutional police are fighting against the people, I personally am going 308 because of the barriers. Or if I was lucky enough to get out of dodge for the mountains, again 308 for hunting. If I had to "snipe" off bad guys coming from far off..again 308.
So for a real "shtf" (not fantasy shtf where you picture yourself as military running around clearing houses) I choose 308 all the way.
BUT if all you have is an ar-15, than so what it will work good too. Id go with Hornady 75 bthp as my main load

What do you guys think?

 

[jpd676]

First off,

I think you aren't in touch with reality. As far out in left field as the "Zombie" movement is, you are equal to them if you post comments like this:

"I dont think people understand what a real life "SHTF" situation is going to be. If it does happen it is most likely going to be the government coming down on us.
So all your "battles" are going to most likely be between you/us and cops/governmental agents.."

"So in a real all hell breaks loose scenario and the unconstitutional police are fighting against the people..."

I am a police officer and I became a cop to protect people's constitutional rights, not to circumvent them or take them away. I was not born a police officer and I sure as hell don't intend to die as one, especially not taking away guns from citizens.

As far as a SHTF scenario, I would consider someone breaking into your home to kill/rob/rape...you would fit into this category. The 308 wins if energy is your consideration but you also have to consider over penetration. The 5.56 can be effective with the right bullets but a 55 gr projectile doesn't rank high on a kill a human immediately scale. There is a book called "Trigger Men," I forget the author, that talks about the kill power of a 223 loaded with 77gr smk's being similar to a 308 out to 600 yards. It is an excellent read that changes the debate. Ammo selection in the 5.56 can be a night and day difference.

From a cop that won't go to war with you unless you fire the first shot.

 

[battlestick]

16" AR for me.

In a real world SHTF - no zombies or crap - scenario, I will not be like you. I will not be out "sniping" people off.

I will be hunkered down in my bug out location and any engagemets I have will be in a defensive type scenario. ie. Someone trying to come in to my location. Be it for food, shelter, to talk, rape, mame, kill, no matter. You get in, or try, and you eat lead. This range requires fast follow ups, and the more ammo between mag changes the better, bad guys run in packs.

If you are out kicking in doors, the odds are against you living as long. My objective is to live and to protect my family. Keeping out of sight, not creating a bunch of noise (like picking 'em off from the roof at 300 yds) is your best defense.

SHTF = Katrina, Tornadoes, Flooding, Rodney King riots, etc. To defend yourself and your family when the SHTF is one thing, to be out picking them off at long range smells like a good murder charge when order is restored. Real snipers do use 308, and larger calibers.....Are they on the offensive, or defensive?

Sorry one more thing...You mentioned penetration of barriers. I personally think you need to investigate the effectiveness of a 223 projectile against common barriers that would arise in a SHTF scenario. You will be very surprised what non-milsurp ammo will penetrate, and how well it will do.

 

[timmay]

First off,

I think you aren't in touch with reality. As far out in left field as the "Zombie" movement is, you are equal to them if you post comments like this:

"I dont think people understand what a real life "SHTF" situation is going to be. If it does happen it is most likely going to be the government coming down on us.
So all your "battles" are going to most likely be between you/us and cops/governmental agents.."

"So in a real all hell breaks loose scenario and the unconstitutional police are fighting against the people..."

I am a police officer and I became a cop to protect people's constitutional rights, not to circumvent them or take them away. I was not born a police officer and I sure as hell don't intend to die as one, especially not taking away guns from citizens.

As far as a SHTF scenario, I would consider someone breaking into your home to kill/rob/rape...you would fit into this category. The 308 wins if energy is your consideration but you also have to consider over penetration. The 5.56 can be effective with the right bullets but a 55 gr projectile doesn't rank high on a kill a human immediately scale. There is a book called "Trigger Men," I forget the author, that talks about the kill power of a 223 loaded with 77gr smk's being similar to a 308 out to 600 yards. It is an excellent read that changes the debate. Ammo selection in the 5.56 can be a night and day difference.

From a cop that won't go to war with you unless you fire the first shot.

I hope youre right but Im sorry I am NOT out of touch of reality. As far as the government not coming down on people you are blinded my friend. When it does happen in full scale I just hope there are more police officers like you that are for the protection of citizens rather than for the police state that this country is turning into. They are slowly, smoothly doing this and the police force are going right along with it enforcing the unconstitutional laws. If you would like examples there are MANY.
So when a law is passed stating that no citizen can own a semi auto weapon or any firearm for that matter, are you going to enforce that law and arrest anyone that has a gun? You know you will (well maybe not you but most will), Im sorry but police will do as they are told.. Theyll just say something like " I know you should be allowed, but its the law now so Im just doing my job"

You also say Im out of touch because of comments like saying the battles will be between us and the government...What do you think Marshal Law is going to be like? That IS the government/police/military taking over. So yes it will be the American people against their government..not roving bands of hungry people

 

[BlackSS]

Buddy, I agree with you that some of the powers that be would love to push for marshal law and taking our guns and freedoms away. I however give our police and military more credit than to think they would follow orders to enforce such ideals. It would take the the military, not just police to do what you are talking about. I don't know a single soldier that would become a tyrant against the country they are sworn to protect.

 

[jpd676]

Timmay,

There are some cops in places that buy into leberal ideology but there are states, like Wyoming, that are pushing aginst it. We have always been an open carry state and recently passed a law that a valid driver's license qualifies as a CCW, as well as other laws that protect the second ammendment. Most cops and military people love our country and what it stands for and will die to protect it against any enemy, foriegn or domestic.

I won't take guns from people if the government tells me to, that will be a federal law not a state law and I don't enforce federal laws. Besides red blooded American's will gladly give up their guns, bullets first right? Like I said in my first post, I wasn't born a cop and I don't intend to die as one. When I retire I have no plans to give up my guns to the government. Sure there are some moronic cops out there but don't put me into the same category as them; I would argue that I represent the vast majority not the minority. I didn't mean to hijack your thread, but I felt somewhat slighted by it.

Trevor

 

[timmay]

Timmay,

There are some cops in places that buy into leberal ideology but there are states, like Wyoming, that are pushing aginst it. We have always been an open carry state and recently passed a law that a valid driver's license qualifies as a CCW, as well as other laws that protect the second ammendment. Most cops and military people love our country and what it stands for and will die to protect it against any enemy, foriegn or domestic.

I won't take guns from people if the government tells me to, that will be a federal law not a state law and I don't enforce federal laws. Besides red blooded American's will gladly give up their guns, bullets first right? Like I said in my first post, I wasn't born a cop and I don't intend to die as one. When I retire I have no plans to give up my guns to the government. Sure there are some moronic cops out there but don't put me into the same category as them; I would argue that I represent the vast majority not the minority. I didn't mean to hijack your thread, but I felt somewhat slighted by it.

Trevor

I didnt mean any disrespect to you or your fellow officers. Without you guys anarchy would run rampant, so I respect what you guys do and putting your life in danger every day you go to work. Im just saying that the "sthf" deal isnt going to be what most think (at least thats my opinion).
Also like the other poster said about the military, I agree with him. Most soldiers are waking up and realizing that their government is extremely corrupt and is not going to follow orders during a marshal law or some other take over.
I feel that if the gov does do something like that, it will have to be with a foreign military under the UN and if/when that happens I KNOW the American soldiers will be having NONE of that and hopefully the police wont either. I know the armed citizens wont be having none of it.
I feel there is a domestic war coming in our near future. The government is out of control and has been completely taken over by foreign banks. NWO Bankers run this country. Republican/democrat doesnt matter whos in office, they are all controlled by the same puppet master

 

[Nomad]

I hear a great deal about this shtf stuff, best firearm, how much of this and we need more of that.......
Reality check people have survived for hundreds of years and will go on past our lives....
Its a good idea to have some items stored, for when there are needed food and water and etc.
I have served in Army for five years, 22 years as a law enforcement officer. I have to go
with jpd676 in this area........Some people have a dream world too many hours playing games
on their TV and less time in reality......just .......... .02

 

[threejones]

I don't mean to stir the pot even more. But if you really want to be prepared for some sort of SHTF, you'd have rifles in the same caliber as your would-be attackers, most likely 5.56 or 7.62, I would think (ideally, rifles that you can shoot better than what the bad guys). If you're thinking ahead of them, they'll leave plenty of ammo around for you to use after they've been dispatched. In a suvival situation where you're hunting for sustinance, caliber means nothing, toss ethical hunting calibers out the window. A 22lr will feed the family about as well as anything else (depending on how well you use it). There's a reason that Eskimos traditionally use a 22lr for pretty much everything, polar bears included, and those are some folks who are really good at surviving. Plus you can easily pack as many rounds as you feel like taking. Like the above comments, just my $.02, but thinking ahead is gonna be worth more than picking a caliber.

 

[Cordell]

We still live in the USA so get one of each why settle for just one? I love the 5.56 I use and carry it often. Had a 308 Win but sold it for school, now looking at a 243 Win to replace it. We are free to choose what we want, so use that freedom.

PS

jpd676 & BlackSS well said!!

 

[Mike Monson]

What do you mean Zombies aren't real?

 

[LouBoyd]

What do you mean Zombies aren't real?

They won't be the lurching mindless zombies from the movies. They'll just be your fellow humans who have decided that survival means "everyone for themselves" with the moral, ethical, and legal rules abandoned or used only for their own or immediate group's benefit. You'll only be able to tell them by their actions which will be flexible to fit their immediate needs. There is no creature as dangerous or less predictable than a human who has chosen to abandon civilization's rules.

You see some of them now. Who they are depends as much on you as them. Time and circumstances will sort that out. No doubt those who have prepared for a major and long lasting disaster will seem like zombies to those who haven't.

They have plenty. They should share with us. It's our right.

 

[emn83]

What do you mean Zombies aren't real?

well, after that dude at the other guys face in Miami, I'm not so sure any more

 

[oneyeopn]

I am a Veteran, I come from a family of veteran's and LEO's and some of them are both. We all know that there are people who follow orders and do not think for themselves and when not if the government turns on its people they will have plenty of "sheep" kicking down doors and confiscating weapons. Just last week I saw a video of a Chicago Police officer telling a "news team" that their first amendment rights can be "Terminated". they were filming outside across the street from a Hospital. I also believe the "zombies" will be a lawless group or band roving out from cities to take what they want and wont care about the consequences because there wont be any.
As was said the government can take my guns "bullet first", but I think that the officers who will stand against an unlawful governmental order are less than what we believe. The national guard is full of those people and I believe, but pray not, that a civil war is in the brewing and it will be between the government and the people!! I have both calibers and am proficient with both, it will depend upon the situation that determines which is better.

Semper Fi!