midwesthunter
Well-Known Member
Has anyone shot same weight bullet/caliber for both of these? I was wondering if you loaded some target bullets, if you could use same data for the hunting bullet? I just got a bunch of target bullets for dirt cheap.
berger hunting/target bullets
- Thread starter midwesthunter
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
I have shot both in my 6.5x284's. In the 140VLD the weight and BC is the same. They also shoot the same. I have heard that the jacket of the hunting bullet is thinner as to give better expansion characteristics.
Broz
Well-Known Member
I know the 7mm 180's and the .308 210 VLD's do. Done it many times.
Jeff
Jeff
7stw
Well-Known Member
Yup, been there, done that. Ordered some Berger 168 VLD orange box bullets last spring. When I went to pick them up, they were yellow. I took them anyhow, and he got me the correct ones. When they arrived, I loaded and tested them against the match bullets. They shot the same. P/ S, don't accidentally take them hunting with you like I did. I took some on a crop damage hunt last summer, and had to track one over 4 hundred yds. And that was just to see what the damage was, and why it ran so far. Then the light came on, and I realized that I had brought some of the first batch which was the match bullets. Take care and enjoy!
AIM SMALL, MISS SMALL. 7STW lightbulb
I dont think what you heard is right about the jacket of the hunting vld being thinner.
I cross sectioned a target vld and hunting vld to compair and the jacket on the hunting vld is slightly thicker but has a much more pronounced air pocket/void at the tip.
The target vld has a small open space kinda like a match king but the hunting vld is like 4-5 times greater open tip space.
Maybe this must help with the more consistent opening/fragmenting abilities? Id like to do some ballistic comparisons with them in the very near future.
Ill see if I can post some pictures of the cross sections I did so you can see the difference
Thanks. I would be interested in seeing the pictures if you can post them. I can't remember where I heard that the jacket was thinner, I think it was on this site.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
The jackets on the hunting are the original thickness, the target is thicker to take the velocity and extended rate of fire in a match.
Ive heard all kinds of different things, thats why I cut them open to find out.
I just took some pictures, Ill try to load them up
But what I heard from a reliable source is that Berger changed the hunting vld jacket because the original was fragmenting too much or too soon so they made the jacket a little more stout. I dont know if that means thicker or just stronger but it looks to me like the hunting vld jacket is a little thicker
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Here is the answer to the question!!!!!! http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/match-grade-berger-hunting-vld-history-1.php
Here are some pics They are from a cell phone, also my cross sectioning skills arent the greatest. Also these are two different grain sizes but both 30 cal. The tall one is 210 grain target vld, the shorter one is the hunting vld 168 grain. I dont know if this will make a difference. I would think they would use the exact same jacket composition in each caliber
no matter the weight. So assuming they do, then it shouldnt matter comparing 210gr to 168 gr...but I dont know for sure....anyways see if you think the vld hunting looks thicker?
Dont know why my phone downloads pics to the computer sideways but I cant figure out how to turn them upright....sorry
no matter the weight. So assuming they do, then it shouldnt matter comparing 210gr to 168 gr...but I dont know for sure....anyways see if you think the vld hunting looks thicker?
Dont know why my phone downloads pics to the computer sideways but I cant figure out how to turn them upright....sorry
Attachments
timmay,
The ~ .005 of an inch difference as noted by Bryan below is hard to tell from your cross-section picture of the bullets.
Left: 210gr target VLD
Right:168gr hunting VLD
The ~ .005 of an inch difference as noted by Bryan below is hard to tell from your cross-section picture of the bullets.
Left: 210gr target VLD
Right:168gr hunting VLD
The thick jackets were created to solve the failure problem, which they have.
Since we haven't tested them for terminal performance, we can't know how they might perform, so it would be irresponsible for us to recommend them for hunting, or even say they're OK for hunting.
Since I know some of you guys like to live on the bleeding edgeand you're working on things that the front line answers don't suffice, I'll offer the following additional information.
The thick jackets are thicker by about ~0.005" (more or less depending on caliber) in the bearing surface area. From the bearing surface to the mouth, the jackets have more taper than the standard (hunting) jackets, so that the thickness at the mouth is nearly the same as it is for the standard jackets.
What does that mean for expansion? One could assume (dangerous) that since the jacket thickness is close to the same at the mouth, that expansion would be initiated the same as it is for the standard jacket, but that the subsequent expansion/fragmentation could be less violent/excessive. Another way to say it is that the bullets might not provide enough expansion/fragmentation on long range, low velocity impacts as the standard jackets because the thicker jackets could hold the bullet together more.
Then again it's possible that the thicker jackets could prevent adequate expansion/fragmentation even at nominal/close range impact speeds. This is the possibility that we're afraid of, and it's why we can't advise them for hunting, which translates to advising against their use for hunting.
Jacket design is a classic trade-off between terminal performance on low velocity impacts vs survivability in high velocity / rough barrel applications. Reliable performance on low velocity impacts drives jacket thickness down, while survivability drives it up. The shooter who wants a bullet that survives 3400+ fps MV from a possibly rough barrel, and have that same bullet expand reliably on a long range shot where the impact velocity is 1800 fps or less is really asking a lot.
We're doing our best to understand and improve the design of jacketed hunting bullets in order to make the best bullets possible for as wide of a range of applications as possible. I see our current offerings of thick and thin jackets as a stepping stone toward a better solution. One shouldn't have to decide between high velocity survivability and low velocity terminal performance, but that's currently the situation.
Hope this sheds some useful light,
-Bryan
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
What I've found works the best to get an actual # is to mill them then peal the lead out and clean up the edged that will be smeared and burred and measure them. If you cut them any lower or higher than dead center you'll be cutting across the diagonal of the jacket and it will look much thicker.
Forester
Well-Known Member
The only difference I have seen with the ones I tried (7mm 180gr) is that at 500 yards the target bullet puts a deeper crater in my steel plate. Leads me to believe that the .005" jacket thickness makes it a significantly tougher bullet.
