Lazz 7.82 Warbird w/190gr Berger VLD

[LazzInc]

well, got thru step #1, seated the 190gr Berger VLD hunting bullet in the Lazzeroni 7.82 (.308) Warbird case, so that the bullet's ogive was right up against the barrel lands, in a newly chambered Lazzeroni rifle ,,,,,,

at that length, it still fit into the mag box just fine, so there will be no cycle or function issues out of the mag box, when using the new load, any Lazzeroni rifle we have ever built ,,,,,

I need to run to Long Beach this weekend, but next week I am going to start shooting them, tuning the load first for speed, pressure and 300 yard accuracy ,,,,,

then once that is all sorted out, it will be time to shoot a hog or two at close range for Christmas dinner, and check the bullet's performance on an actual animal ,,,,,

 

[Sako7STW]

Keep us informed. I have been told that the Bergers dont shoot worth a crap above 3100-3300 FPS as they come apart.

 

[Outlaw6.0]

I'm intrigued to find out how this bad boy performs. Berger VLD + LOTS of powder... it's sure to provide a bunch of these>>>>>>

 

[TMR]

Keep us informed. I have been told that the Bergers dont shoot worth a crap above 3100-3300 FPS as they come apart.

Lots of guys run the Bergers at these velocities and they shoot fine. As long as the twist is correct, they will hold to together and not come apart at high speeds. Most people with the 300 RUM's are running 210's in the 3100-3200 range with great accuracry. The following are my personal experiences and accuracy is all well under 1/2moa.

6mm 105 VLD: 3200-3450fps
6.5mm 140 VLD: 3300fps
7mm 168 VLD: 3300-3400fps
7mm 180 VLD: 3400fps (7mm Allen Mag days)
30 210 VLD: 3150-3250fps

I do know of one guy that had the 180's come apart at 3300, but we found out his twist was actually an 8 twist instead of a 9. Big difference at those speeds.

 

[dragman]

Very interested in how it all works out for you the Warbird and Firebird have always had my eye.

 

[Fiftydriver]

Generally the Berger bullets that have issues with velocity are the smaller calibers in the heavy for caliber weights such as the 22 cals in heavy 80 to 90 gr weights and 6mm in 105 gr. and 6.5mm 140 gr VLD.

These are generally most accurate in velocity ranges up to 3250 fps.

THe larger Bergers such as the 7mm, as mentioned generally do very well up to around 3400 fps in a fresh barrel but in a worn barrel are sometimes limited to 3300 fps for accuracy.

Also, rifling design is critical. You want less then 22% baring surface compression on the bullets by the rifling. Does not really matter what rifling design you have, if your much over 22% baring surface compression, you will likely have accuracy issues, if your barrel has less then this, you will have fine accuracy results most of the time.

Most 3 groove barrels have pretty wide lands and generally have issues with Berger bulelts over 3250-3300 fps. Just something to keep in mind.

Spinning these bullets excessively fast will also cause problems so make sure you have the right twist rate for your bullet weight and velocity range you are working at and less then 22% baring surface compression and you will likely have very few problems with the Berger bullets.

They also shoot the best seated JUST off or lightly touching the lands. I prefer not to load hunting ammo to touch the lands so I seat then 5 to 10 thou off just for increased reliablility.

 

[LazzInc]

Well ,,,, no matter what, it is seldom easy ,,,,,

over the last three weeks I have shot around 80 rounds of the 190gr Berger VLD hunting bullet out of two different Lazzeroni Warbird rifles ,,,, both with 12 twist barrels ,,,, one with around 250 rounds thru it, one a brand new model 2012 ,,,

used Retumbo powder and Fed 215 primer, NO lubrication on the bullet ,,,,,, seated both ON the lands and .050 off the lands ,,,, ((this made very little if any difference))

all accuracy testing done at 300 yards ,,,,,

if I shot them at 3200 fps average ,,, 3-shot 300 yard groups were consistent 1 7/8" - 2 3/4" ,,,, not stellar by any means, but workable I think with some fine tuning ,,,,

when I sped them up a little to 3375-3400 average ,,, they went all over the place ,,,,, seems that Sako7stw knows what he is talking about in this area ,,,

I have some 190gr Sierra HPBT on the shelf already NP3 lubed and ready to go ,,,, that will be my next shooting binge, trying IMR-7828 powder instead of the Retumbo since the bullets are lubed well ,,,,, this should also tighten up my shot-to-shot variations ,,,

Does anyone here have any experience with the 190gr Sierra HPBT on decent sized animals ? ,,,,,

I am also going to order another box of the Berger 190s and have them NP3 coated, then start again to see if this will help keep the bullet more uniform as it scoots and accelerates down the barrel ,,,,,

I looked at the differences between the 190gr and the 210/230gr pills in the Warbird out to 1,000 yards ,,, and I just do not see enough advantage to the heavier bullets (in downrange energy & wind drift), to justify the tighter twist and increase in recoil ,,,, not sure all will agree with my opinion ,,,,

I will keep you posted ,,,,,

 

[Long Time Long Ranger]

Most all my hunting is done inside a half mile and I shoot the 190 bergers out of 300 RUM's often. My rifles are light hunting rifles and no need getting rocked with the heavier bullets when the 190's shoot flatter with very little difference in wind drift. I use lighter bullets in many of my rifles for lighter recoil and flatter trajectory. There is a balance between how fast you can drive a lighter bullet compared to a slower higher bc bullet. At some point downrange the heavier high bc bullet is going to win. However that range may be further than you plan on shooting. So the key is not to have a rifle equipped to shoot a mile when 99.9% of your shots are at a half mile and closer. In a light hunting rifle this makes quite a big difference in recoil and being able to get on an animal quickly with a flatter trajectory.

I just got off the range shooting two 300 RUM's with 180 grain cutting edge bullets at near 3500 fps. The bc is around .6 at that velocity. No need me shooting 210 bergers at a much slower velocity and higher recoil when these are 1000 yard rifles. Inside that distance the 180 wins. Also at the range I had a 338-378 wby shooting 225 grain .64 bc cutting edge bullets at 3480 fps. This bullet is a far better choice inside 1200 yards than the 300 grainers. Recoil is far less in a light hunting rifle and it shoots so much flatter it enables me to do so much more with it. Windage is virtually identical to 1200 yards compared to the 300 grainers. just some food for thought.

By the way welcome to the site.

 

[Michael Eichele]

Well ,,,, no matter what, it is seldom easy ,,,,,

over the last three weeks I have shot around 80 rounds of the 190gr Berger VLD hunting bullet out of two different Lazzeroni Warbird rifles ,,,, both with 12 twist barrels ,,,, one with around 250 rounds thru it, one a brand new model 2012 ,,,

used Retumbo powder and Fed 215 primer, NO lubrication on the bullet ,,,,,, seated both ON the lands and .050 off the lands ,,,, ((this made very little if any difference))

all accuracy testing done at 300 yards ,,,,,

if I shot them at 3200 fps average ,,, 3-shot 300 yard groups were consistent 1 7/8" - 2 3/4" ,,,, not stellar by any means, but workable I think with some fine tuning ,,,,

when I sped them up a little to 3375-3400 average ,,, they went all over the place ,,,,, seems that Sako7stw knows what he is talking about in this area ,,,

I have some 190gr Sierra HPBT on the shelf already NP3 lubed and ready to go ,,,, that will be my next shooting binge, trying IMR-7828 powder instead of the Retumbo since the bullets are lubed well ,,,,, this should also tighten up my shot-to-shot variations ,,,

Does anyone here have any experience with the 190gr Sierra HPBT on decent sized animals ? ,,,,,

I am also going to order another box of the Berger 190s and have them NP3 coated, then start again to see if this will help keep the bullet more uniform as it scoots and accelerates down the barrel ,,,,,

I looked at the differences between the 190gr and the 210/230gr pills in the Warbird out to 1,000 yards ,,, and I just do not see enough advantage to the heavier bullets (in downrange energy & wind drift), to justify the tighter twist and increase in recoil ,,,, not sure all will agree with my opinion ,,,,

I will keep you posted ,,,,,

Have tried the 190 SMK on black bears and dall sheep. I gave up on the for hunting. Too inconsistent in the expansion department. Your warbird velocities MAY fix that issue as my experience was at 308 velocities. 2657 to be exact. Bears at 65-125 yards, sheep at 300, 425 and 600 yards. They became a bomb on shoulder hits and penciled through on lung/rib shots.

you are correct. Most here would disagree with you on the 190 versus 210 or 230 in the windage and energy department. The new 200 grain Berger may fill the gap nicely though. Just something to think about.

I almost forgot to add. The 200 grain ACCUBOND stabilizes in a 12x barrel just fine. Another great option for the warbird.

 

[LazzInc]

Michael ,,,,,

,,,, isn't the whole idea here to get a 30cal VLD "hunting" bullet that can travel well out to 1,000 yards ? ,,,,,

I already know how the Lazzeroni 180gr swift a-frame, 168gr HPBT and 150gr Lazerhead factory loads perform on game animals ((we have tons of data)) ,,,, and I am sure there are also other good choices ,,,,

now the trick is to find a good VLD bullet to SHOOT accurately at high speed and perform on game animals right ? ,,,,

are you saying that the accubonds are going to fly to 1,000 yards like the 190gr Sierra HPBT, shoot as accurately AND perform well on the animal ? ,,,

 

[Michael Eichele]

Michael ,,,,,

,,,, isn't the whole idea here to get a 30cal VLD "hunting" bullet that can travel well out to 1,000 yards ? ,,,,,

I already know how the Lazzeroni 180gr swift a-frame, 168gr HPBT and 150gr Lazerhead factory loads perform on game animals ((we have tons of data)) ,,,, and I am sure there are also other good choices ,,,,

now the trick is to find a good VLD bullet to SHOOT accurately at high speed and perform on game animals right ? ,,,,

are you saying that the accubonds are going to fly to 1,000 yards like the 190gr Sierra HPBT, shoot as accurately AND perform well on the animal ? ,,,

The 200 grain 30 cal ACCUBOND has a pretty decent BC (similar to the 190VLD) and will fly to 1K just fine. As long as you keep the impact velocity close to at least 1800FPS, they work awesome on game. The ACCUBOND is a stout bonded bullet that expands very reliably and does not 'blow up' on impact. Granted it is not a 'VLD" bullet but the 200 AB by pure weight and sectional density has a very good BC. IMHO, the ACCUBONDS are one of the best balances between accuracy, expansion and BC available. These are VERY accurate bullets. If your rifles are as accurate as you say they are, you wont have any trouble getting them to fly nicely. I have seen consistent .25-.5 MOA accuracy in all of the barrels I have fired them in (4) at 100-300 yards. The furthest I have shot an ACCUBOND is 650 yards. Accuracy was very good. I know of others that have had good success at 1K and beyond.

 

[Michael Eichele]

Make that 5. I forgot about developing a load for a friend of mine using 225 grain 338 cal ACCUBONDS. Coincidentally, it was chambered in your 8.59 Titan. A re-barreled SAKO (Shilen barrel). I had it down to about a .6 MOA out to 300 yards and he was shooting them in the 8" 3 shot group range at a full 1K. That would be a real world experience with the ACCUBOND fired out of one of your cartridges.

 

[LazzInc]

finally an update ,,,, I have been able to get decent 300 yard groups with an NP3 coated 190gr Sierra HPBT, at 3400 fps corrected velocities out of my 12 twist barreled Lazzeroni Warbird rifle ,,,, 65,000 PSI ,,

I am going to try and upload one of my test targets here, to show everyone the results so far ,,,,

I am now going to switch to a little faster powder, to see if I can tighten the groups up to .5 moa or less at 300 yards ,,,,, then I will back up to 1,000 yards ,,,

after that, if all goes well, I will go smack a few pigs with the 190gr Sierra, at both long and short range to see how that works ,,,,,

one cool thing about the new prospective Lazzeroni load ,,,, with the 190gr Sierra's ogive seated .005" off the lands, the OAL is still well within the factory mag box length on the Lazz Warbird rifles, so we can get the bullet up on the lands, and still fill the mag box up with them ,,,,,

stay tuned ,,,,,,

 

[Fiftydriver]

The 200 gr Accubonds in 30 cal actually perform extremely well out to 1000 yards and beyond. I load them to 3480 fps in my 300 Allen Xpress and 3585 fps in my 300 Raptor with very fine accuracy. In good shooting conditions 1/2 moa is not all that hard to get.

The nice thing is that these bullets are not sensitive to rifling design, twist rate or muzzle velocity. They hold together well at closer ranges, fly pretty flat, expand reliably at long range when used in a larger magnum and generally shoot right there with the match bullets for accuracy.

Certainly they give up a bit to the match VLD bullets in BC but they generally can be driven much faster which makes up some for the lower BC.

Anyway, they shoot much better then most would ever believe for long range shooting and do much better then most would think ballistically as well.

For an ALL AROUND bullet they are great.