Help Keep this Site Top Notch!

[Scot E]

Gents,

Beware, you are entering a certified "soap box" zone!

I have been part of many excellent chat forums over the years. They are wonderful places to find folks with like minds whom one can share valuable information with. Unfortunately most of them are a shell of what they once were.

With every forum I have been a part of there has been a theme that joins them all together. It is as follows. They all start out small and full of folks that are passionate and usually very knowledgeable about the particular forum topic. As time goes by and popularity increases more people join, usually folks looking to learn from those more experienced. As a result the inexperience of some of those new additions, brought on by a serious dose of attitude and pride, begins to drive the real knowledgeable folks away. Still the sight keeps growing as more new folks come to participate as the success of the site grows. With the popularity comes even less experience and often times even more ego. Too often these once valuable forums turn into a place where the goal is not learning or sharing info but instead a place where couch potato experts participate in ****ing matches solely for the purpose of appearing to be an expert with a hidden goal of making as many posts as possible, saying as little as possible, solely to get that post count up. Afterall, the more posts a guys has the smarter he has to be right? . Yes, Brad Paisley's song "online" should come to mind here!

I have seen a number of posts here recently that are leaning in this direction. I am in no way speaking on behalf of Len but I think it is very important for us to keep some common considerations in mind before posting.

1. Debate is critical and necessary for proper vetting of an issue which hopefully leads to factual education, moving this sport forward for the positive. Belittling, badgering and hard headed arguing over non-issues never moves us forward. So let's debate passionately but respectfully and be okay with just agreeing to disagree at times.
2. Before we post to a thread we should honestly ask ourselves if we are going to be able to contribute anything of real importance to the topic at hand. Folks come here to find opinions based on serious in the field experience not just to hear anyone's opinion on a subject they may have little personal experience with. I have seen a number of posts lately where someone posted an answer that was just nowhere near accurate. And I am not talking about a debatable type topic, more like a " do I put the objective end of a scope toward the barrel or toward the bolt"? Okay, I made that up but you get my point! We shouldn't be afraid to ask newbie questions but should be very leery of giving our opinion when we have little knowledge or experience on the topic.
3. There are a few gents here that have multiple posts on almost every thread I read. And most of them are saying next to nothing. They have higher post counts than many of the guys that have been here since the beginning. To me it seems proper to keep that kind of post building for Facebook or some other social networking site where "likes" are viewed as the only indicator of what kind of a person you are in this world.

Len, please feel free to put me in my place here if this isn't the direction you want to see your sight heading. I just know that this site is full of some really great guys, many of which are very experienced and are an absolute treasure of knowledge for the LRH community. But many of those guys don't post nearly as much as I would like and I have a feeling it is at least in part because of some of the things I mentioned above. I want to keep this site top notch for years and years to come!

Soap Box off!

 

[kcebcj]

Well said Scot. My expertise lies more in the actual hunting of elk and deer then the long range taking of them. The last few years I have really worked hard on getting the reloading and accuracy thing pinned down.

What impressed me about this site a few years ago was the info available from people who really knew their **** in areas that I wanted to learn. Today there are not so many. There are still a couple three fellas that when it comes to reloading that are very knowledgeable and I read everything they post which is usually is in response to a well thought out question and there are some in other areas.

Please don't misunderstand me this is a great site and I visit every morning but it does not seem to hold the high tech info from very knowledgeable people that it once did.

Maybe it's the level of the technical questions being ask today that is the reason the knowledgeable guys have kinda backed away???

 

[Broz]

Well said, and I agree. I myself have limited my posting as I feel what I have to offer may not be a helpful addition, as, I am sure a few of the armchair quarterback experts will get it answered, right or wrong. I too feel the quality of posted info on the site is on a decline. But I am glad I was here to learn from the ones that have left or now post only on a rare occasion.

Just my personal opinion.

Jeff

 

[royinidaho]

Ian had a way with this.

I miss Ian!

And agree.

 

[Boss Hoss]

I have gone to PM only--no more posting about things that will generate a response. Someone wants to PM me they can. Even told Kelly that I was going to have to back out of testing his rifle which I felt bad about because they were building it in the caliber I asked for.

 

[ss7mm]

Guys I understand what you are saying and I also remember what Len originally said was the reason that he started this site in the first place. But…..we all have to take a deep breath and look at what happens when a site goes from a couple of dozen original dedicated members that ate, slept and breathed long range shooting to a site that now has well over 38,000 members.

There is no way that an increase like that will not "water down" the one thing we come here for. I would also like to say this and it applies to me as well as to all of our seasoned members. If we read a thread/post and know that it contains bad information and we say nothing to correct it, then we are just as guilty of spreading the bad info as the person that posts it. I know it may seem like if we say something to set things straight that it will lead to arguments and/or confrontations. I would also like to remind you that this site is not like some of the "internet jockey expert" sites out there. This site is kept under control and trolls and trouble makers are very quickly not around any more.

People that spend much time around here will very quickly learn who really knows what they are talking about and who is just blowing smoke and spilling beer on their keyboards while boosting their perceived image. Yes there are some that build their post count but that is the way of the internet. If we ignore them then they will no longer get their fix and the problem will be diluted a bit each time we do that.

The site is what we make it and we have the control and the ability to keep it a dedicated long range site that also happens to allow discussions and threads on just about anything. I know that sometimes it seems like the dedicated, specialized, detail oriented posts we all love so much have dwindled away but quite possibly it's not the case. I think they are still there it's just that we have to sort through a lot of cubic zirconium to find the diamonds. Off hand I can easily think of posts that have detailed info about shooting to over 2000 yards. I can also easily think of posts that have detailed info about cartridge modifications and bullet design and testing. I can think of posts about long range hunting with a ton of info related to the hunt. I could go on and on but my point is……I personally thing the dedicated, detailed posts we all like so much are there, and quite possibly there are more now than when the site started it's just that, with the number of posts we get each day, it may make the few gems harder to find.

I can sit here and easily think of a ton of members that have the knowledge, equipment and expertise to write an amazing thread about all of the different aspects of our sport. Now, how do we get them to write those threads? It's easy to sit back, do nothing, contribute nothing and just read and complain but how about getting some of the guys sharing some of that wealth of info and the pics and the stories.

One thing that some of us forget is that we need to have a bit of a skin transplant before we delve into the depths of a site like this. By that I mean we need to develop a thicker skin, a better sense of humor and to also learn how to discuss a point without taking it to a place where the kids on a playground might take it. How many of us have read a thread about something that we know a lot about and did not post and did not say anything? I guarantee it's a lot. How many of us have read a great thread about elk hunting and really liked it but did not respond nor did you congratulate the OP on his hunt? How many of us had a great experience while hunting this fall and yet we did not share it with others on this site? Isn't it quite possible that we are some of the problems that we complain about?

Also remember that on each and every post made on this site there is a small icon in the upper right hand part of the post that you can click on and report the post. The icon is shaped like a triangle and by clicking on it you can report the post and also leave a comment about your reason for reporting the post. Remember, Len and I don't read every single post made but our members do so we can always use your help. The report you make gets sent to Len and I and we both also receive it on our cell phones so the response is typically fairly quick unless we are out hunting or shooting.

Remember, it's easy for us to talk about the problems but how many of us are really willing to be part of the solution?

 

[Scot E]

Guys I understand what you are saying and I also remember what Len originally said was the reason that he started this site in the first place. But…..we all have to take a deep breath and look at what happens when a site goes from a couple of dozen original dedicated members that ate, slept and breathed long range shooting to a site that now has well over 38,000 members. There is no way that an increase like that will not "water down" the one thing we come here for.

I am not so much concerned about watered down, as in having to wade through the massive amount of posts to find good ones or to find the info I need, but I am more talking about the quality of info being less. I do understand your point that there may be just as much or more good info here now but it is just harder to find. That may be true. But here is what I know about most of the experts on a site like this. They are almost always anal retentive, OCD, type A personalities. Not always all of those but I would wager almost every gent here has some of those traits. If you want to keep those kind of guys around you need to create a atmosphere where they feel appreciated and find value in putting up with biting gnats!

I would also like to say this and it applies to me as well as to all of our seasoned members. If we read a thread/post and know that it contains bad information and we say nothing to correct it, then we are just as guilty of spreading the bad info as the person that posts it. I know it may seem like if we say something to set things straight that it will lead to arguments and/or confrontations.

Good point. Without this we are doomed.

I would also like to remind you that this site is not like some of the "internet jockey expert" sites out there. This site is kept under control and trolls and trouble makers are very quickly not around any more.

Dick this is just my opinion based on the past forums that I have been a part of that have ended up falling apart. But the above is what they all said. "We aren't like the other sites, we moderate, will still have good info here". I am not necessarily arguing any of those points with you or Len. This is still a great site. Instead I am pointing out where I see this site now and where I fear it is headed as it grows into the future. LRH is on a teetering point right now IMO where you guys need to be concerned about loosing the knowledge base as the forum grows and changes. I guess I am just trying to point out my take on seeing many good chat forums fall away and am hoping that we can all learn from history and take some new and/or different actions that will keep things moving forward for the benefit of all.

People that spend much time around here will very quickly learn who really knows what they are talking about and who is just blowing smoke and spilling beer on their keyboards while boosting their perceived image. Yes there are some that build their post count but that is the way of the internet. If we ignore them then they will no longer get their fix and the problem will be diluted a bit each time we do that.

True but here is what I think I know about the real experts here. They are busy with life like the rest of us and are likely additionally busy because they are out shooting more than the average guy here so they have limited time to post. Would I like them to post more? Absolutely! But it is unlikely. It is even less likely that they are going to post when they have gotten hammered by guys that don't know what they are talking about. And if they do choose to post it is most likely going to be very selective. They just don't have the time to go around correcting mistakes of others then spending half a week arguing the point.

Secondly, it may be easier for some guys to wade through the bull crap but it isn't for the newbie. They are desperate for knowledge and have a hard time knowing what works or what is best. Getting bad info isn't going to keep them around long and isn't going to make their learning process very smooth and enjoyable. A negative for the LRH community as a whole.

The site is what we make it and we have the control and the ability to keep it a dedicated long range site that also happens to allow discussions and threads on just about anything. I know that sometimes it seems like the dedicated, specialized, detail oriented posts we all love so much have dwindled away but quite possibly it's not the case. I think they are still there it's just that we have to sort through a lot of cubic zirconium to find the diamonds.

This does bring up another issue that I think would be helpful for the guys here. The search feature stinks. Being able to find the info one is looking for ins't always easy. I have an easier time doing a google search for it than I do searching through LRH. Maybe some work here could be done? This would eliminate some of the many duplicate threads here.

I can sit here and easily think of a ton of members that have the knowledge, equipment and expertise to write an amazing thread about all of the different aspects of our sport. Now, how do we get them to write those threads?

Ask them. You may be surprised what guys are willing to do when they realize they are valued here.

Remember, it's easy for us to talk about the problems but how many of us are really willing to be part of the solution?

I guess that is what I am trying to do. Talk about it and hopefully get many of the good guys, the experienced guys, to dedicate themselves to being an active, positive participant while letting them know that LRH is working on making the atmosphere here more conducive for their input.

I will tell you what I would do as a starter. I would be making a list of all the guys that I felt were valuable participants and I would be contacting them and telling them how valuable they are to this site and the LRH community in general. I would also point out the weaknesses of this site but also promote the strengths and how you would like them to be as much of a part of LRH as possible. I would let them know that you are working on making things more conducive to positive debate and not school yard fights.

I would ask them to participate and if things get out of hand to politely decline to continue communications with said member at that time. But don't let it keep them from being involved. I think you may be surprised how much guys are willing to put up with when they know they are valued and appreciated.

I hope my true intent here is coming through. I love LRH.com. There is still a ton of great guys here and great info. I just see it heading the way of many others forums and want to try to get ahead of this if possible so we can keep this great resource.

One more thing I would like to add here and I am guilty of this too. I think it is easy for us to at least partly want to keep this LRH thing a bit of a secret or at least keep the newbies from coming in and screwing things up. I hear a lot complaining about how the newbie's don't practice and therefore make us all look bad, etc. And I don't disagree with this point. But I would suggest we need to be less concerned about hacking off a few green weenie wackos and more concerned about bolstering our numbers. We win the big fight by having more people on our side than are against us/hunting (and this means hunting of any type) This will be much easier if we continue teaching and educating and accepting everyone interested than if we try to keep things on the DL in an attempt to try and minimize the ammo the greenies have against us.

 

[ss7mm]

I am not so much concerned about watered down, as in having to wade through the massive amount of posts to find good ones or to find the info I need, but I am more talking about the quality of info being less. I do understand your point that there may be just as much or more good info here now but it is just harder to find. That may be true. But here is what I know about most of the experts on a site like this. They are almost always anal retentive, OCD, type A personalities. Not always all of those but I would wager almost every gent here has some of those traits. If you want to keep those kind of guys around you need to create a atmosphere where they feel appreciated and find value in putting up with biting gnats!

Wading through massive amounts of posts comes with site expansion. You can't have over 38,000 members without having a lot of posts. That's just a fact that we have to deal with. As to the quality of the info posted......I really have no control over that, nor does Len. There is not criteria for posts and they don't have to meet a certain standard. As to catering to people some might consider experts......that's been experimented with in the past and it led to even more problems that there is no need to get into here.

This is still a great site. Instead I am pointing out where I see this site now and where I fear it is headed as it grows into the future. LRH is on a teetering point right now IMO where you guys need to be concerned about loosing the knowledge base as the forum grows and changes. I guess I am just trying to point out my take on seeing many good chat forums fall away and am hoping that we can all learn from history and take some new and/or different actions that will keep things moving forward for the benefit of all.

As far as the site, it's content and format goes, that's all up to Len. I just enjoy what it is and that's a free site where I can get my fix on what I enjoy doing. Len is certainly aware of the site and it's changes and I know that when he returns from his hunt that he will read this thread and will take everybody's opinions into consideration.

True but here is what I think I know about the real experts here. They are busy with life like the rest of us and are likely additionally busy because they are out shooting more than the average guy here so they have limited time to post. Would I like them to post more? Absolutely! But it is unlikely. It is even less likely that they are going to post when they have gotten hammered by guys that don't know what they are talking about. And if they do choose to post it is most likely going to be very selective. They just don't have the time to go around correcting mistakes of others then spending half a week arguing the point.

I can't control what the "experts" do or think nor would I want to even if I could. Nobody on LRH is required to post anything. If people feel that they get negative responses when posting then it's their privilege to not post. As much as some may like to be able to limit who posts and what they post, it is just not going to happen.

Secondly, it may be easier for some guys to wade through the bull crap but it isn't for the newbie. They are desperate for knowledge and have a hard time knowing what works or what is best. Getting bad info isn't going to keep them around long and isn't going to make their learning process very smooth and enjoyable. A negative for the LRH community as a whole.

As bad as it may sound, we can't hold everybody's hand and guide them through life and I hope that the new members around here are intelligent enough to make their learning process an enjoyable one. This one site doesn't dictate to them what they will do in their learning process. They have the freedom to go to as many sites as they want to so we don't control their learning nor can we singularly guide each and every one. The site is here and the info is available as posted. What we do with it is up to us and I'd like to think that our membership is intelligent enough to make informed decisions for themselves.

This does bring up another issue that I think would be helpful for the guys here. The search feature stinks. Being able to find the info one is looking for ins't always easy. I have an easier time doing a google search for it than I do searching through LRH. Maybe some work here could be done? This would eliminate some of the many duplicate threads here.

This has been brought up so many times that I'm really wondering if anybody around here reads anything. The facts have been presented by Len and he has no control over the site software or it's capabilities. We are aware of the shortcomings of the site "search" feature and it's been discussed countless times. Along with most of those discussions I've repeatedly explained to readers how to use Google to search successfully for anything on this, or any other, site. But, since you didn't mention it I will, again, tell people how to search using Google.

In your Google search box simply enter what you are looking for in this format by replacing the x's with what you are looking for. Site:LongRangeHunting.com XXXX This will return to you all occurrences of your XXX search for the web site you input after "Site:" And yes, I know there is at least one other way you can format the search but the result is the same.

Ask them. You may be surprised what guys are willing to do when they realize they are valued here.

I have and I've tried but most of the time I don't even get a reply.

I hope my true intent here is coming through. I love LRH.com. There is still a ton of great guys here and great info. I just see it heading the way of many others forums and want to try to get ahead of this if possible so we can keep this great resource.

One more thing I would like to add here and I am guilty of this too. I think it is easy for us to at least partly want to keep this LRH thing a bit of a secret or at least keep the newbies from coming in and screwing things up. I hear a lot complaining about how the newbie's don't practice and therefore make us all look bad, etc. And I don't disagree with this point. But I would suggest we need to be less concerned about hacking off a few green weenie wackos and more concerned about bolstering our numbers. We win the big fight by having more people on our side than are against us/hunting (and this means hunting of any type) This will be much easier if we continue teaching and educating and accepting everyone interested than if we try to keep things on the DL in an attempt to try and minimize the ammo the greenies have against us.

I do understand your intent and appreciate it. I'd just ask that you remember that there are a lot of things beyond my/our control. Like I've also said previously, Len does everything he can to make this the best site he can for the majority of the people. As long as he pays the bills then I guess we'll live with what he provides for us to use free any time we want to.

Your thoughts about increasing our numbers is reflected by the statement I made about our membership numbers. This site is growing by leaps and bounds so I'd say that Len is trying to get the long range hunting community put before as many people as he can. I have the decals on my truck and get a lot of responses from them. I spend a lot of time explaining to people what the site is and what it's all about. I work with anybody that wants to listen and go shooting and I have never turned down an opportunity to help someone. We had 9 days of deer season and 9 days of elk season here and I probably spent about 3 or 4 hours during each season answering people's questions about long range hunting. Most of them came because of the decals on my truck or from people seeing the gun I was using. I even had a game warden drive 3 or 4 miles out of his way to come see the "guy with the big gun" that was described to him. That led to a half hour talk about guns, ballistics and long range hunting. I also had an occurrence during deer season where a gentleman came back twice to talk about long range hunting and what he needed and how he could get into it.

If everybody on this site had spent a like amount of hours just during this hunting season the sport we like would have been greatly helped. You can do it in the field and you can do it on this site. If anyone sees somebody posting here that needs help then help them. If they are seeking information then provide it for them. If we all just tell ourselves that we are tired of the same old questions then that newbie is going to get a response from a keyboard jockey who may not even know which end the bullet comes out of.

I do appreciate you thoughts and I do understand your frustration and I try to do as much as I can to help anybody that needs it. I'd like to think that there are more than two of us out of 38,000 that are making the effort.

I guess what I'd like to tell everyone is "Pay it forward". You'll like the results.

 

[extreme]

Scot e
i,am far from the smartest gie on this site but i would like to thank you for this post.the part about gies posting on every thread just to get a higher post count is so true it stinks..
There are sponsors on here also that cut people down , and then apologize,,like that makes it better..
But there also some very smart people and great sponsors that keep gies like myself checking for there threads.it,s a great site to buy and sell stuff also.hopefully it will go back to it,s original meaning,,,to me that,s to teach and learn from others smarter and more experienced.

 

[dogdinger]

I hope i am never accused of posting just to get my post count up. I dont give a rats *** who thinks what concerning my post count. I started a thread on this same issue a couple years back when it seemed the average IQ of the posters on here took a dramatic swing downwards, and i stopped coming here for a while. I know i have made a few posts that got some feathers ruffled in the past , but being passionate about a subject sometimes does that. I sincerely try to keep conversations courteous even when i strongly disagree with someones opinion, and refrain from getting into name calling and personal attacks. There is still a wealth of information on the site if you can sift through the drivel and find it. AJ

 

[Capt. D]

I joined this site nearly 4 years ago. This is my 30th post. Some have been questions, some have been my 2 cents worth.

While some of the expert advice that was more readily given when I joined has slowed some, there is still a lot of quality advice and conversation on this site. I believe that I am smart enough to figure out the difference between comments that are sound or questionable and those that don't really say anything at all. I guess the only real thing that gets to me is the threads that get so far off line due to a close minded ****ing contest. I have seen a few threads die because no reasonable response was given to the original poster.

There are some keyboard jockeys on every site but usually you can figure them out in short order. I have received a ton of great advice, just by hanging around and reading, and have implemented some of that advise into my own shooting with great success. I have had some work done to a couple of my factory rigs based on what I have read here. I bought my first Night Force off of this site. Now I need to pull the trigger so to speak and have a rig built.

I for one do appreciate the efforts of those who do share there expertise for those of us want the knowledge.

I don't necessarily mind wading through some of the brow beating, hell sometimes its funny, but it does on occasion go too far.

Any how I'll keep hanging around, still a ton of good stuff here.gun)

Dallas

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: LRH Search Instructions using Google search

In your Google search box simply enter what you are looking for in this format by replacing the x's with what you are looking for. Site:LongRangeHunting.com XXXX This will return to you all occurrences of your XXX search for the web site you input after "Site:" And yes, I know there is at least one other way you can format the search but the result is the same.

This is my 'Keeper' out of this Thread - so far. Been camped out here for several years and I don't recall reading this before. When I'm checking 'New Posts' daily, it doesn't really matter that much. But there have been times when I've had difficulty searching because it seems like I have to type in at least 4 letter/digit words to qualify for any search. And one immediate problem with that is most cartridge designation are only three digits. 257 338 etc.

So I'll have to keep this alternative in mind, next time I'm ready to search historical Threads/Posts for information on the next build. Thanks for posting this 'one more time.' I must be a slow learner.

 

[crowsnest2002]

I guess I dont post very often on here, but as I've heard often while in the military, "Stay in your Lane". That is the easiest way for me to put it for the people that like to talk and never listen. I sincerely appreciate all of your inputs and try to gain as much information from all the experience offered on this wonderful site.