Frustrating Fliers

[j_unzicker]

As discussed on an earlier forum about seating next to the lands, I climbed the ladder and found that the top of the ladder was a 62 grain charge of IMR4831 for my 7RM (168 VLD's). I then worked to vary the seating depth and found that this charge was most accurate when the bullet was jammed into the lands. In a 5 shot grouping at 300 yards I am able to put 4 bullets in a 2" group, but I am getting one flier 4" outside the group regularly. Any thoughts? Neck tention issues? I noticed that the thickness of my neck casings vary (just by eyeballing it). Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[renegadelzard]

Do you know which shot it is that is drifting out of the group?...if its the first, it could be something as simple as torque on the front action screw...it could also be a barrel heat issue..are you firing five quick enough to heat the barrel up?...if you are getting four out of five where you want them consistantly, statistically it is improbable that it is your handloading...it is more than likely an equipment or operator malfuntion..lol..

 

[Buffalobob]

What primer are you using? If you are using 215s try something cooler.

What brass are you using. Mark the pieces that had fliers and see if they will consistently cause fliers. Funny story about me doing that and my daughter shooting a f-class match and getting irritated that the marked pieces were giving her low scores. After that I didn't test brass during matches.

 

[j_unzicker]

Yeah, I am using the Fed 215 mag primers. I have regular CCI200 primers I could use, but I was told that they might not burn hot enough to ignite well in weather below 20 degrees (which I often hunt in). I was also resting the front sandbad on the barrel...could have this have caused the problem?
I don't know which exact shots were "flying" but I will start marking the casings and check each shot (no spotting scope so a lot of walking). I am also getting velocities that swing in a range of about 80f/s with these charges. Is that a normal swing? With a swing this wide, will I ever be able to get really accurate shots consistantly?

 

[renegadelzard]

80 fps is a pretty big jump....are you crimping?...if so, try a few without and see if that fixes it...

 

[j_unzicker]

No, I'm not crimping, but the rifle has only had about 50 rounds through it and I haven't done anything special (other than shoot it) to break it in properly. Plus I use a snake bore for cleaning and haven't run a patch with bore cleaner through it. I've heard that the vel will settle down once broken in. Anything special I need to do?

 

[renegadelzard]

honestly, i have never put much stock into the whole barrel break in hoop-la...i figure the more a cleaning rod goes in the barrel, the higher chance of the crown getting damaged..i use a bore snake and if the barrel warrants a good cleaning, ill plug the bore with an ear plug wrapped in a rubber glove and fill the barrel with hoppes, let it sit overnight, then run a length of 550 cord through the barrel with a patch tied on, followed by the bore snake...but once again...if four out of five consistanly hit the mark, then i believe it is the gun..is the barrel free floated..if not, you may be putting pressure on the barrel in an inconsistant manner, thereby causing the barrel harmonics to change..you may be holding harder on the first shot and letting up as you accustom to the recoil..or tightening your hold as your shoulder starts to pound...check your action screws and make sure they are torqued down to specs..i had a rifle that would send the first shot 4 inches high at 100 yards and settle down to a tigh sub moa group for the following four..turns out the front action screw was torqued about 15 inch pounds to light, and that was enough to seat the action with the first shot..once i picked the rifle up off the rest, it would move back...try the simple stuff first and try not to change too much at once or you wont know what fixed it...also, and i think it is an outside chance, but check your COL before firing..loading into the lands is fine for some, most of my hunting guns like a little jump, but i have noticed that when processing brass, i get bored very quickly, and this leads my mind to wander and i have more than a few pieces of brass that are different lengths..this leads to COL's that arent always the same and more importantly, the pressure differences between some of my loads due to inconsistent seating depth have caused more than a few fliers..i know its a lot to digest but this is why we chase that magic load right..its fun..when evrything works...when it doesnt, its almost as enjoyable as stapeling scorpions to my testicles...lol...

 

[j_unzicker]

Very well said.
I am trimming my cases to uniform length but I do notice that some cases seem to have a thicker wall. I assume that if I can notice that with the naked eye, that might be causing some variance in neck pressure, but don't know for sure.
The advice you gave is exactly the advice that one of my friends gave he (he's the one that got me into reloading). Check the action screws and too much pressure/varying pressure on barrel of non-floating barrel.
At the range I was resting the barrel instead of the stock on the sandbag and I was holding the top of the barrel just above the edge of the stock with my left hand. I know that sometimes I was applying more pressure down with my left hand than others. Didn't even think at that time that this could be a problem. But I will try a different form and see if that helps lose the flier.
Concerning the seating, I'm not for sure as to the best terminology, but I may be jumping a little. Here's what I did...seated a dummy round by using the pressure on the bold to jam the bullet into the case. Then I used the press to try to match that depth and after I load each round, I run it through my chamber and eject it (just to make sure that the bullet won't stick in the barrel out in the field when I eject). So all that to say...the bullet may not be jammed too hard into the lands, but this seems to give me the best groups.

 

[renegadelzard]

At the range I was resting the barrel instead of the stock on the sandbag and I was holding the top of the barrel just above the edge of the stock with my left hand. I know that sometimes I was applying more pressure down with my left hand than others. Didn't even think at that time that this could be a problem. But I will try a different form and see if that helps lose the flier.

this could very well be the culprit....try to avoid at all cost resting on the barrel..this will kill accuracy very quickly...always rest on the stock..if the barrel isnt free floated, rest the rifle as far back as possible on the forearm....this will minimize pressure on the barrel from the forearm....

 

[Reloader222]

As discussed on an earlier forum about seating next to the lands, I climbed the ladder and found that the top of the ladder was a 62 grain charge of IMR4831 for my 7RM (168 VLD's). I then worked to vary the seating depth and found that this charge was most accurate when the bullet was jammed into the lands. In a 5 shot grouping at 300 yards I am able to put 4 bullets in a 2" group, but I am getting one flier 4" outside the group regularly. Any thoughts? Neck tention issues? I noticed that the thickness of my neck casings vary (just by eyeballing it). Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I had occational flyers in my .222Rem. Out of 20 shots it would at least give me 4 flyers. There were also pressure signs on those that were flyers. The Standard Diviation on the load was as low as 9.8fps. With the load there was nothing wrong. I had tested for donuts, but there were nothing. My problem was that I had accumelated cases over the past 20 years when I had not done any reloading. This had the result that my brass got mixed up - some reloaded more than others. I solved this by annealing all the cases and that was the end to my problem. The reason was probably that the flexibility of the brass were differed.

 

[ReachnOut]

Whoa ..... on resting the barrel on anything. Whether it's a bag, cushion or custom rest nothing needs to be touching or supporting the barrel when firing for accuracy. I think everyone would agree that free-floating a barrel is a staple of putting together an accurate rifle. Resting the barrel on anything defeats that purpose as the consistency of barrel harmonics and/or pressure points completely changes.

 

[j_unzicker]

Yeah, I'm hearing that message loud and clear. Thanks everybody. I made some adjustments in my benchrest set up today when I went to the range. Front bag was on the stock 5" away from the end of the stock; barrel was free.
Shot .5 MOA and my velocity stabilized greatly from shot to shot. What a difference, and no fliers. I'm glad it was something easy and free (you know how this sport can catch up with you dollar wise quickly if your not watching).
I'm very happy with my set up now. I just need to settle in on a midrange scope--a good beginners scope that I can upgrade from if I really get into the long range regularly--but not so cheap that it is a complete waist from the beginning.
What do you guys think about the Vortex 6-24x50 (the old 1" tube that is on sale for $99 on www.swfa.com)? I like the price and the reviews on the scope. Supposed to be fully multicoated, clear, and have clean, percise MOA adjustments. Only concern is that it list max MOA adjustment of 25. If that means 25 total (12.5 above and 12.5 below zero), I would need a 20 MOA base to use this scope long range...even then it might max out short. If it is 25 above and 25 below zero, I should be OK close to 1000 yards with my 7RM.
Any thoughts?

 

[Matt27]

Good scope for the money. Got one.

50 moa total.

 

[RockZ]

Try shooting another ladder at your current seating depth and finding a powder charge with better spreads and no vertical most likely.
And no flyers
I just noticed you are testing the barrel on the bags.
Dont do that and you will be good for your next ladder test.