Am in process of gathering info for my 1st Long Range rifle. Will be doing some bench rest shooting/development and paper punching up to and occasionally 1,000 yards. Was going towards the 308 Winchester but was advised to consider the 260 Remington also. Could use some good advice/opinions quickly.Tnx
260 Remington Cartridge
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loaders_loft
Well-Known Member
I chose 260rem for a full custom target rifle. Everything at the smith now, in fact. I'll be shooting the tactical style matches also. Its a very good choice. Lots of great match bullets to choose from, with BC as high or higher than you'll find for a .308... I'll be using the 139 scenar.
loaders_loft
Well-Known Member
by the way, for target shooting, the 260 rem outperforms the 308 easily, and less recoil (lighter bullets). I chose a 26" #10MTU 1:8 SS from Brux, a surgeon rsr action and badger bottom metal, jewel trigger, mcmillan A3-5 adjustable, ken farrel rings and nightforce 5.5-22x56 npr1. Had to sell my ATV to buy the components, but I found all the best I could get. If you have any questions about these components or whatever else, fire away...gun)
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
The difference between the 260 and the 308 is very little as far as 1K wind is concerned. The 260 will drift 5" less than the 308 in a 10 MPH wind at 1K using 142 SMK's versus the 190 VLD running at top end velocities. The 260 will recoil alot less than the 308. The 308 barrel will last much longer. Using the 208 versus the 140 VLD and the difference is less than 3" of difference. Does the 260 beat the 308? Or does the 308 beat the 260? It depends on what qualities are important to you.
The bottom line is that you cannot dramatically beat the 308 by sticking a smaller bullet in the same case.
Now if you want to have a very happy medium between recoil and barrel life and have the least drift, then the 7mm08 running 162 AMAX's or 168 VLD's could be a good way to go. The 162 AMAX will drift 10" less at 1K than the 308's 190 VLD top end for top end. The 208 versus the 162 is about 5" of difference.
Using 140 class (260), 160 class (7mm), and 190 class (308) bullets at up to 600 yards, there is not enough difference ballisticaly (except for energy) between the 3 to even remotely matter.
The link below is a good read.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/308-winchester-1.php
The bottom line is that you cannot dramatically beat the 308 by sticking a smaller bullet in the same case.
Now if you want to have a very happy medium between recoil and barrel life and have the least drift, then the 7mm08 running 162 AMAX's or 168 VLD's could be a good way to go. The 162 AMAX will drift 10" less at 1K than the 308's 190 VLD top end for top end. The 208 versus the 162 is about 5" of difference.
Using 140 class (260), 160 class (7mm), and 190 class (308) bullets at up to 600 yards, there is not enough difference ballisticaly (except for energy) between the 3 to even remotely matter.
The link below is a good read.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/308-winchester-1.php
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loaders_loft
Well-Known Member
most guys I've seen are shooting 175 or 155 smk's in their 308's. Maybe the ones shooting 190 vld's aren't talking about it, who knows...
trebark
Well-Known Member
260 shoots faster and flatter than the 308 and generally with higher BC bullets. My current custom build in the works is a 260.
Sierra's 190 HPMK was a favorite for 1000 yard matches in the .308 Win. It won a lot of matches at 600 through 1000 yards and set some records along the way. These bullets would leave about 2550 to 2600 fps from 26 inch barrels.
But after Sierra came out with their 155-gr. Palma bullet, shot it in 30 inch barrels faster than 3000 fps, it out performed Sierra's 190. Bucked the wind for all practical purposes just as good as the 190. And Sierra's new 155-gr. Palma bullet's got a higher BC than their original one.
I wouldn't get impressed by the "VLD" claim for some bullets. A test was made some years ago shooting Sierra 190 HPMK's and Berger 185 VLD's out of the same barrel through chronographs at the firing line and 1000 yards down range. When both bullets left at the same muzzel velocity, the Sierra's went through the 1000-yard chrono over 50 fps faster than the Bergers. So the Berger's were really "ND" or normal drag bullets; probably about the same as Sierra 180 HPMK's.
Thanks people for all good info. Need just a little more advice-I am leaning towards a Krieger 26"-260 REM-#8 contour(or #9 contour)-SS 5R rifling-8.5" twist barrel. Do have choice of others.Should I consider others?? Is a Surgeon action worth the extra cost??? Tnx for kind help.
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I don't think any bolt action will shoot a cartridge any more accurate than a Winchester Model 70; any version. They've been used to shoot the smallest 15+ shot groups at long range I know of. You can spend more on a BAT, Surgeon, or whatever, if you like. They'll only need their bolt face and receiver face squared with the chamber axis plus an Anschutz or a Jewel trigger to help them along.
The Stolle Panda action's a favorite for such cartridges used in competition.
trebark
Well-Known Member
aaahhh the ancient question of which barrel maker/type to use....
The best answer I have found is any of them. Some folks will swear by one barrel or another. I don't believe it. All the good custom barrel makers take pride in their work and their business depends on their reputation in the market place. If you like the Krieger, go with it. Personally, one of my rifles has a Hart and my new build will have a Brux barrel on it.
Actions, that's a tougher question for me to answer. All my rifles are built on Rem700 actions and shoot .5moa or better. That's good enough for me. I would certainly hope that the custom actions that cost a bunch of $$ had better perform better.
loaders_loft
Well-Known Member
there are two short action surgeons. The RSR is the one I ordered, and the price was not much different than a stiller tac30, because it comes with a rail and the stiller rail is extra. The RSR is built heavier duty than the tac30. Double pinned rail, double pinned recoil lug, one piece bolt, stronger bolt stop just to name a few things. When I ordered my Surgeon action, they quoted me the lead time and delivered right on time. The bolt will need a coating, it comes in the white.
All the surgeon actions are designed for hard use applications. Benchrest actions are a totally different application. Do you want a benchrest gun or a tactical gun? Your components and gunsmith choices all depend on what you want. Have a benchrest gunsmith build your bench gun. Have a tactical rifle gunsmith build your tactical gun. For that matter, even the chambering. I'm not sure .260 rem is the best choice for a benchrest rifle, but then again, I don't know much about benchrest.
You didn't mention what actions you were considering. If you already have a donor winchester or remington you can use it. The problem I encountered with my winchester short action was finding a 10 round removable mag system for it, and finding a dealer with inventory of winchester inletted tactical stocks (Gene sears supply carries inventory of mcmillan stocks inletted for rem and clones and probably the best price on jewel triggers).
All the surgeon actions are designed for hard use applications. Benchrest actions are a totally different application. Do you want a benchrest gun or a tactical gun? Your components and gunsmith choices all depend on what you want. Have a benchrest gunsmith build your bench gun. Have a tactical rifle gunsmith build your tactical gun. For that matter, even the chambering. I'm not sure .260 rem is the best choice for a benchrest rifle, but then again, I don't know much about benchrest.
You didn't mention what actions you were considering. If you already have a donor winchester or remington you can use it. The problem I encountered with my winchester short action was finding a 10 round removable mag system for it, and finding a dealer with inventory of winchester inletted tactical stocks (Gene sears supply carries inventory of mcmillan stocks inletted for rem and clones and probably the best price on jewel triggers).
I had the same debate some time back. I decided to go with the 260. I have not been disappointed at all. I have since looked at the other 6.5 cartridges out there such as the creedmoor, and I just keeping coming back to the 260. I have not regretted it at all. The powders that seem to work best that I have played with are the Hodgdon powders. I use the Sierra 142 MK. Try these options first and it will likely save you some load development time. The round shoots much flatter than the 308.
USMC8531
Member
I just got my barreled action back from the plumber after having a new .260 tube screwed on. The rifle was originally a 5R in .308 and shot very well.
I went to a .260 after a lot of inner debate on what I really wanted in a long-range target caliber. I liked the barrel life and availability of components of the .308, the recoil and flat shooting characteristics of the .243/115 DTAC, and found the .260 to be a great compromise for everything that I wanted.
I will be testing the 139 Scenar, 140 Berger, 142 SMK here over the spring for a round that gives me a couple of hundred yards over the .308 with less recoil. I will also have a bit better barrel life over the .243.
My build is around a trued Remmy 700 action (off of the 5R), with a 26" Broughton 5C in 7.7HV contour, sitting in a Manners T4 stock. I've got a Sightron SIII 6-24x50 for it as well. Right now I'm just waiting on the stock to come in, which should be this next week.
I went to a .260 after a lot of inner debate on what I really wanted in a long-range target caliber. I liked the barrel life and availability of components of the .308, the recoil and flat shooting characteristics of the .243/115 DTAC, and found the .260 to be a great compromise for everything that I wanted.
I will be testing the 139 Scenar, 140 Berger, 142 SMK here over the spring for a round that gives me a couple of hundred yards over the .308 with less recoil. I will also have a bit better barrel life over the .243.
My build is around a trued Remmy 700 action (off of the 5R), with a 26" Broughton 5C in 7.7HV contour, sitting in a Manners T4 stock. I've got a Sightron SIII 6-24x50 for it as well. Right now I'm just waiting on the stock to come in, which should be this next week.
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
This is one of my favorate topics/debates.
A few facts (this is geared more towards target shooting than hunting):
1: BC typically goes up with calibers. This applies to the 260 versus the 308 as well.
2: As the BC and caliber goes up, unfortunately so does the recoil. This also applies to the 308 versus the 260 because it takes alot more weight for the BC to rise. 140 VLD = .615ish (light recoil). 208 AMAX = .648 (heavy recoil)
3: A smaller diameter bullet of equal weight and form compared to a larger diameter bullet will always win in the BC department.
4: A bigger bore shooting the same weight of bullet as a smaller bore will always win in the velocity department provided barrels are of equal length. You can run a 175 as fast in a 308 as you can a 142 in a 260.
5: Barrel life always goes up when equal cases are used when the bore is increased.
All that said, there is not a 260 load that will shoot as flat as the 308 when it is loaded to its full potential to 1K. The 139 versus the 155 Scenar (max velocity potential for each) will be 18" different to the 308's benefit.
Also, all that said, the difference in wind here is 10" at 10 MPH at 1K to the 260's benefit. To get the windage equal between the 260 and the 308 (which is possible) you have to sacrifice 2 things going to the 308. 1: Loss of trajectory. 2: Much more recoil.
From a match standpoint (not a hunting standpoint) trajectory in and of itself means nothing. Recoil and windage is however important. The 260 is a better choice for 1K matches, mostly due to the recoil. Any time you can have less wind drift, it is an advantage. Even though there are 308 loads that will keep up with the 260 for windage, the price is much heavier recoil. After a while this really does affect the shooter. As much as I love the 308, if I shot more matches than I do, I would easily have a 260 barrel for my short action platform.
As it is, I am getting a 284 barrel for my SA platform. This will be a 7mm08. Which (with the right bullets) will beat both the 260 and the 308 at 1K in the windage department. The recoil and bore life will just be in the middle.
A few facts (this is geared more towards target shooting than hunting):
1: BC typically goes up with calibers. This applies to the 260 versus the 308 as well.
2: As the BC and caliber goes up, unfortunately so does the recoil. This also applies to the 308 versus the 260 because it takes alot more weight for the BC to rise. 140 VLD = .615ish (light recoil). 208 AMAX = .648 (heavy recoil)
3: A smaller diameter bullet of equal weight and form compared to a larger diameter bullet will always win in the BC department.
4: A bigger bore shooting the same weight of bullet as a smaller bore will always win in the velocity department provided barrels are of equal length. You can run a 175 as fast in a 308 as you can a 142 in a 260.
5: Barrel life always goes up when equal cases are used when the bore is increased.
All that said, there is not a 260 load that will shoot as flat as the 308 when it is loaded to its full potential to 1K. The 139 versus the 155 Scenar (max velocity potential for each) will be 18" different to the 308's benefit.
Also, all that said, the difference in wind here is 10" at 10 MPH at 1K to the 260's benefit. To get the windage equal between the 260 and the 308 (which is possible) you have to sacrifice 2 things going to the 308. 1: Loss of trajectory. 2: Much more recoil.
From a match standpoint (not a hunting standpoint) trajectory in and of itself means nothing. Recoil and windage is however important. The 260 is a better choice for 1K matches, mostly due to the recoil. Any time you can have less wind drift, it is an advantage. Even though there are 308 loads that will keep up with the 260 for windage, the price is much heavier recoil. After a while this really does affect the shooter. As much as I love the 308, if I shot more matches than I do, I would easily have a 260 barrel for my short action platform.
As it is, I am getting a 284 barrel for my SA platform. This will be a 7mm08. Which (with the right bullets) will beat both the 260 and the 308 at 1K in the windage department. The recoil and bore life will just be in the middle.
