What do you think of this???
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AJ Peacock
Well-Known Member
I agree with the author, the greatest crime was committed by the fish and wildlife agent.
Good thing the agent wasn't trying to sting someone for hiring a murderer, he'd have had to kill someone!
AJ
Good thing the agent wasn't trying to sting someone for hiring a murderer, he'd have had to kill someone!
AJ
Yep, they should hang the agent right along with the rest of them.
If these guys had been associated with previous sheep kills, enough to raise suspicions of outfitting, why not press the past "clients" to cough up some evidence against the Outfitter, for imunitty from participation in those acts.
No, go ahead and have a sting, where the sheep and the residence of Montana are the ones who suffer. If I was a Montana resident hunter, I would be swamping my representativs with mail and calls.
If these guys had been associated with previous sheep kills, enough to raise suspicions of outfitting, why not press the past "clients" to cough up some evidence against the Outfitter, for imunitty from participation in those acts.
No, go ahead and have a sting, where the sheep and the residence of Montana are the ones who suffer. If I was a Montana resident hunter, I would be swamping my representativs with mail and calls.
prtaylor
Well-Known Member
IMO the fish and game should be charged and put in jail along with the the other criminals. He shot and missed twice. That seems to me reason enough to end the operaton. I fail to see what more they gained by actually killing the animal. If we as hunters accidentally shoot an illeagal animal we would be put through the ringer.
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Being the guy who shot (legally) the first B&C ram (score 185) out of the breaks back in 89. Here's my $.02... It is well known that there are poaching problems in the breaks, especially with sheep. If FW&P didn't conduct undercover operations a lot more trophy animals would be lost than this one sheep. It is a real shame the ram was shot, especially being a state record. But.... how many trophies would be lost to poachers without the efforts of the FW&P. Now I cant see where these guys really did much wrong, but I'm guessing that FW&P had a lot of intel on these guys before they started this operation. Why did Lewton offer to buy the ram for $5000???
I think there is a lot of information missing from this story and we are all rushing to judgement before all the facts are known. NEVER a good idea to makes judgements before knowing all the facts. So yeah, we see a monster ram killed and we get very upset. I wonder how many trophy sheep these guys may be responsible for taking illegally in the past??? Would your opnions and attitudes be different if you knew they had shot a half dozen or dozen nice rams in years past?
FW&P is by no means perfect and I have some critiques for this opperation. Why didn't they set it up as a poaching sting? Or illegal outfitting and guiding? Not very smart for sure. Did the ram have to be shot? That can be debated forever.
I would rather have an imperfect FW&P that screws up now and then than no FW&P at all. In the case of the latter, we would have precious few nice animals to hunt in Montana.
I know a couple of FW&P agents or former agents and they are great guys. There's a couple of bad apples too, just like anywhere else in our society.
my $.02
-MR
I think there is a lot of information missing from this story and we are all rushing to judgement before all the facts are known. NEVER a good idea to makes judgements before knowing all the facts. So yeah, we see a monster ram killed and we get very upset. I wonder how many trophy sheep these guys may be responsible for taking illegally in the past??? Would your opnions and attitudes be different if you knew they had shot a half dozen or dozen nice rams in years past?
FW&P is by no means perfect and I have some critiques for this opperation. Why didn't they set it up as a poaching sting? Or illegal outfitting and guiding? Not very smart for sure. Did the ram have to be shot? That can be debated forever.
I would rather have an imperfect FW&P that screws up now and then than no FW&P at all. In the case of the latter, we would have precious few nice animals to hunt in Montana.
I know a couple of FW&P agents or former agents and they are great guys. There's a couple of bad apples too, just like anywhere else in our society.
my $.02
-MR
Timberbeast7
Well-Known Member
All the maybe's aside, what makes the MFWP above the law. They committed a more serious crime than what they have charged the "criminals" with. If these guys were serious poachers, I'm sure they would be charging them with something more serious than trespassing and guiding without a license (both of which sound a little shaky after reading more on the situation). The ONLY felony they are charged with is unlawful possession of a sheep that the MFWP killed!...which, if the trespassing charge fails the unlawful possession would fail too as that sounds like the only thing that made it illegal (tag was valid, open season). And who wouldn't pay $5000 for the Montana state record sheep head if you have the money? The whole thing sounds like it is treading dangerously close to entrapment.
silvertip-co
Well-Known Member
Having had 5 yrs game law enforecemnt experience I would have to say the agent went far beyond the limits of 'working undercover' and should be summarily fired...then arrested and charged with multiple aggravated misdemeanors to equal a felony.
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
Couple of questions...
Do you know all the facts in this case? And if not, just how much about it do you know or think you know?
You said, "What makes MFWP above the law?"... "They have committed a more serious crime than what the "criminals" have been charged with." Can you explain what more serious crime they have committed than what they are charging the other guys with? Or.. any crime at all? I mean actual on the book crimes, not your subjective estimation of a crime.
Do you know for a certain, that these agents lives were not at risk if they refused to make a killing shot the third time? If so, I guess you must have been rigth there with them.
Rushing to judgement?... making conclusions without all the facts?.... hmmmm...
MontanaRifleman
Well-Known Member
When you make a statement like that, you should back it up with facts and the law, page and paragraph. Just what limits did they go beyond and what misdemeanors are they guilty of???
JPRITT
Well-Known Member
Sure there is some grey area here but like others have said, how many trophys were lost due to these criminals before the sting. Undercover work is done in the grey area. Wheather its buying drugs, guns, or big horns, there is now text book for this stuff.
Obviously they agent didnt want to shoot it by missing twice and buying time but got backed into a corner himself. Yes, a trophy was potentialy taken from a worthy hunter but if this Big horn was this big, whos to say it would have lived to see another season?? Also the trickle effect from this arrest and hopefully prosecution will deter future poachers from trying their luck. If the state gets a conviction I'm sure they will make an example of them during sentencing.
Sometimes to catch a wolf you need to be a wolf.
Obviously they agent didnt want to shoot it by missing twice and buying time but got backed into a corner himself. Yes, a trophy was potentialy taken from a worthy hunter but if this Big horn was this big, whos to say it would have lived to see another season?? Also the trickle effect from this arrest and hopefully prosecution will deter future poachers from trying their luck. If the state gets a conviction I'm sure they will make an example of them during sentencing.
Sometimes to catch a wolf you need to be a wolf.
justgoto
Well-Known Member
I hope the agent doesn't land a job at the FBI busting people that hire hit-men.
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
Montana FWP is top of the food chain. They answer to no one other than the President of the United States. If they want you for any reason, right or wrong, they will get you, and they will use any means to do so. I do not trust them. I will never ask them for help if I make a mistake in the field. The only help they will give you is a ticket, and hunting rights suspended. If you all have been hunting long, you know mistakes happen.
I call it entrapment. I am no lawyer, but it sure stinks to me.
Steve
I call it entrapment. I am no lawyer, but it sure stinks to me.
Steve
jimbo300
Well-Known Member
In light of not knowing the full story, it is hard to give a quality opinion. However, it would seem that when the under cover agent was given the "go-ahead to kill" in which at that time Mr. Lewton specifically said something to the effect of "there he is, now shoot him" and at that time the under cover agent shoots at the ram, missing on purpose. That in and of itself should have been enough evidence to convict Mr. Lewton... without actually killing the ram later.
I have been putting in for that area for a few years now. I know that I have very little chance in drawing that tag, but every year I send MFWP my money and hope for a chance to hunt those great rams. I feel that everyone who puts in for a sheep tag in MT got screwed on this deal, needlessly.
I have been putting in for that area for a few years now. I know that I have very little chance in drawing that tag, but every year I send MFWP my money and hope for a chance to hunt those great rams. I feel that everyone who puts in for a sheep tag in MT got screwed on this deal, needlessly.
jimbo300
Well-Known Member
Man isn't that the truth!!! Well if he does, maybe he will continue to give a couple of warning shots/spoilers.
