rem 700 .308
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Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
Lets start with some of the major differences.
1: The 5R has a stainless action and barrel. The PSS's action and barrel is standard.
2: As stated, the 5R has a 24" barrel and the PSS has a 26" barrel.
3: The 5R uses a 11.25 twist and the PSS uses a 12 twist.
Aside from that, other than some stock differences there isnt much else different.
Having used the old VSSF in 308 (12x and 26" barrel) extensively and the 5R even more extensively, I would get either again in a heart beat. Both far exceeded my expectations. These rifles are the reason I dont have a custom 308 despite the fact that I am a huge 308 fan and the 308 is my all time favorate caliber. They have both been concistent sub .5 MOA rifles, even at a full 1000 yards. I cant justify spending 2500-3500 on a custom rifle when these 308's do such an amazing job for a fraction of the price.
If I had to choose between the 2, I would get another 5R. I felt the 11.25 is a perfect twist for the bullets I am likely to feed it AND it handles the 150's - 175's with great results as well. It is perfect for the 190 SMK. The 12x will work with the 190 as well but I feel the 11.25 does it better. The 190 was by far the best load I cooked up. It dropped the least, hit with the most energy, drifted less and on a bad day would shoot .5 MOA at any range excluding windy days where if it was a large group it was a horozonatal spread and even then a "big" group was very rare. I felt the accuracy was a bit better overall with the 5R than the VSSF. My opinion on that is that the shorter, more ridged barrel was a bit less whippy. The draw back was that with this shorter barrel, the premium accuracy loads were much slower than the 26" version. I know that mathematically you will only loose around 40 FPS with a 2" shorter barrel but logistically in the real world, it was closer to 150 FPS to get the maximum accuracy potential where as the 26" barrel yielded maximum accuracy potential at top velocities. For example, the 178 AMAX in the 26" was deadly accurate at 2700+ but in the 24" it was 2550. The 168 was best in the 26" at 2800+ where in the 24" it was 2650-2680.
During the development stage of my 24" 5R, I couldnt figure out for the longest time why I could get max accuracy at top velocities with the 26" barrel where at top velocities werent giving me the same accuracy from the 24" barrel. I tried every powder and bullet combo imaginable. Finally an old timer who was always watching me "blow" powder, after I expressed my frustration, told me that the extra 2" caused the powder to burn a bit differently and decreased the muzzle blast. With the smaller blast, it didnt smack the bullet around as much coming out of the barrel. So to get the same results from the 24" barrel the load had to be backed off a bit. I did as he instructed and found the maximum accuracy potential. Was he right? Or was it coincidence? Who knows, but it seems logical. Regardless, it worked.
Me being the accuracy nut that I am, I would rather loose a bit of velocity for even a little accuracy. This was the trade off I made when I sacrificed the VSSF for the 5R.
The choice is up to your son-in-law. Does he want stainless or not? Does he want heavier or lighter bullets? Does he want maximum velocity potential or max accuracy potential? Either will do the job for years to come!
1: The 5R has a stainless action and barrel. The PSS's action and barrel is standard.
2: As stated, the 5R has a 24" barrel and the PSS has a 26" barrel.
3: The 5R uses a 11.25 twist and the PSS uses a 12 twist.
Aside from that, other than some stock differences there isnt much else different.
Having used the old VSSF in 308 (12x and 26" barrel) extensively and the 5R even more extensively, I would get either again in a heart beat. Both far exceeded my expectations. These rifles are the reason I dont have a custom 308 despite the fact that I am a huge 308 fan and the 308 is my all time favorate caliber. They have both been concistent sub .5 MOA rifles, even at a full 1000 yards. I cant justify spending 2500-3500 on a custom rifle when these 308's do such an amazing job for a fraction of the price.
If I had to choose between the 2, I would get another 5R. I felt the 11.25 is a perfect twist for the bullets I am likely to feed it AND it handles the 150's - 175's with great results as well. It is perfect for the 190 SMK. The 12x will work with the 190 as well but I feel the 11.25 does it better. The 190 was by far the best load I cooked up. It dropped the least, hit with the most energy, drifted less and on a bad day would shoot .5 MOA at any range excluding windy days where if it was a large group it was a horozonatal spread and even then a "big" group was very rare. I felt the accuracy was a bit better overall with the 5R than the VSSF. My opinion on that is that the shorter, more ridged barrel was a bit less whippy. The draw back was that with this shorter barrel, the premium accuracy loads were much slower than the 26" version. I know that mathematically you will only loose around 40 FPS with a 2" shorter barrel but logistically in the real world, it was closer to 150 FPS to get the maximum accuracy potential where as the 26" barrel yielded maximum accuracy potential at top velocities. For example, the 178 AMAX in the 26" was deadly accurate at 2700+ but in the 24" it was 2550. The 168 was best in the 26" at 2800+ where in the 24" it was 2650-2680.
During the development stage of my 24" 5R, I couldnt figure out for the longest time why I could get max accuracy at top velocities with the 26" barrel where at top velocities werent giving me the same accuracy from the 24" barrel. I tried every powder and bullet combo imaginable. Finally an old timer who was always watching me "blow" powder, after I expressed my frustration, told me that the extra 2" caused the powder to burn a bit differently and decreased the muzzle blast. With the smaller blast, it didnt smack the bullet around as much coming out of the barrel. So to get the same results from the 24" barrel the load had to be backed off a bit. I did as he instructed and found the maximum accuracy potential. Was he right? Or was it coincidence? Who knows, but it seems logical. Regardless, it worked.
Me being the accuracy nut that I am, I would rather loose a bit of velocity for even a little accuracy. This was the trade off I made when I sacrificed the VSSF for the 5R.
The choice is up to your son-in-law. Does he want stainless or not? Does he want heavier or lighter bullets? Does he want maximum velocity potential or max accuracy potential? Either will do the job for years to come!
txlongrange
Well-Known Member
Excellent reply, Michael.
I usually don't jump on posts to praise someone....but this is an exception for a job well done.
TXLR
I usually don't jump on posts to praise someone....but this is an exception for a job well done.
TXLR
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
I will elaborate on the development of my 5R.
I tested IMR 4064 with the 168's in the 5R. Accuracy was around the .5 MOA mark. I do not remember the velocities. Never tried IMR 4895 but DID try the H4895. Very good load there. It was 40 or 41 grains under the 175 SMK. 2550 FPS with 3 shot groups in the .100's to .200's at 100 yards and 5 shot groups in the .300's and .400's. VARGET was never as good as I had expected or hoped. VARGET was the powder of choice for my 12x 26" barrel but never the 5R. I tried for quite a while to cook up something with it. Dont get me wrong, it wasnt horrible, it just wasent giving me the ragged one hole groups that other powders were giving me. Hands down the best overall powder for the rifle was RL-15. I used it with the 168-175 SMK, 178 AMAX and 190 SMK. 42.0 of RL-15 and the 178 was by far the most accurate period but 43.5 of RL-15 with the 190 was my "go to" load. It was extreemly accurate, hard hitting, dropped the least, drifted the least, and matched my first 3 mils perfectly in 100 yard increments out to 600 yards with a 300 yard crosshair zero. It punched straight holes at 1K in -10 degree sea level air and maintained .5 MOA accuracy (this is the impressive part) from 0-1000 yards (minus windy days.) All things concidered, it was the ultimate load for that rifle despite the fact that I had other loads that were more accurate. All of my personal best groups I have ever shot at 100, 300 and 1000 yards have been with this rifle. The best 100 yard group was the 178/42.0 RL15 and was my first and only true one hole group. It was a true 0.000" group. I couldnt believe it so a few days later I went to 300 yards and fired another group. It was 0.341" at 300 yards. Later that winter I was working with the 155 AMAX and VARGET and fired a 3.5" group at a full 1000 yards. I thought it had to be a coincidence, drove back to the firing line and fired another group. That one was 4.5". These are all my personal best groups period. Even though the ultra long range accuracy of the 155 and VARGET was phenomonal, the up to 600 yard groups never went under 1 MOA. I scrapped the load. After a while the barrel started to wear pretty bad. More from using JB paste too much and too often than anything. Not heat cracking or errosion but worn down lands. In any event the rifle started to loose its ability to maintain its accuracy with the 190 SMK. So I searched for a load that would work in its weakend condition. I started with BENCHMARK and the 155 AMAX. After trying 42.5 grains it shows very good signs of promise and tested the load several times. Each time it passed with flying colors! I have propably fired 50 groups from the bench with this load and the bad days yields .5 MOA. It is never phenomonal but VERY reliable. The best have been around the .25 MOA mark and never any better, but never worse than .5 MOA. Since then I have toyed with other rifles and calibers and have not taken that load to 1000 to see what it would do so I cant vouch for what it is doing at long range but I suspect it would do just fine. She has since been retired. I will never sell her or modify her, she has way too much sentimental value to me at this point. I tasted my first long range kill with her, shot my best groups with her, harvested more critters with her than any others combined, she NEVER missed a big game critter ever put in her crosshairs, placed 1st in my first match with a 200/200 score and more.
Sorry for the ramble. I just like to brag about my best friend!
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
Michael Eichele
Well-Known Member
I have thought about it. I dont want to just because of the sentimental value, but having just had a new baby, I dont think I can afford to let it collect dust and buy another one just for sentiments sake.
If I do rebarrel it, I will set it up as a switch barrel rifle and use it for the 300 WSM and the 308. Same action, same stock, same scope, different barrels, magazines and bolts.
littletoes
Well-Known Member
Excellant Post!
Thanks Meichele for the input.
Thanks Meichele for the input.
