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This is the thread for discussion of the article: Killing Phone Books - Bullet Performance by Ian McMurchy
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Killing Phone Books - Bullet Performance by Ian McMurchy
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Cool, I've heard that those African phone books are really tough...
tx_shooter
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Only tough because they are printed on animal hides... I don't imagine that they would be real thick from lots of numbers. lol...
CastleRocker
Well-Known Member
Good article
I thought I was the only one that actually did much bullet testing. I have also saved the bones from our elk and put them in front of the "paper box" to shoot through. (I have a steel box that I use to contain the phonebooks, magazines, or newspapers). It really is a good test for what a bullet actually does if a shot happens to hit a rib or a leg bone. My .02
I thought I was the only one that actually did much bullet testing. I have also saved the bones from our elk and put them in front of the "paper box" to shoot through. (I have a steel box that I use to contain the phonebooks, magazines, or newspapers). It really is a good test for what a bullet actually does if a shot happens to hit a rib or a leg bone. My .02
Guy M
Well-Known Member
Not long-range high velocity bullets, but the only bullets I've got photos of after testing. Thought they'd be an interesting addition to the subject. Both were fired from my .45/70 Marlin 1895 lever action into water-filled milk jugs at 20 yards.
The bullet on the left is the bonded 350 grain Swift A-Frame. MV was 2046 fps. Retained weight was 345 grains and it expanded to .710" dia. It was recovered in the 7th jug.
The bullet on the right is the 350 grain Hornady FNSP. MV was about 2086 fps. Retained weight was 296 grains and it measured .846" dia. It was recovered in the 6th jug.
The water-filled milk jugs worked really well, and it was easy to recover the bullets. Of course the test can't show us a wound track, nor does it simulate bone or hide. I do however believe it's pretty interesting. Will be doing more of these tests as time permits.
Regards, Guy
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
A few thoughts on why the sun rises in the east but not ever in the north. That is mostly because there is a big funnel shaped chute up in the sky that keeps the sun from getting off track. This is called the Masculinity Certainty Principle which is the opposite of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. The Masculinity Certainty Principle is predicated upon the person having absolutely no knowledge of what they are talking about but being able to spin up a collection of facts from a vast suppository of information. The wimpy guy Heisenberg would actually admit he didn't know very much very often.
Back in the year of our lord nineteen hundred and seventy eight, having a full load of knowledge about rifles and bullets, I set about to determine what would be a good long range 7mm elk bullet. I chose two bullets with high BCs and one bullet with known penetration ability (160 grain Nosler partition). The two high BC bullets were the Hornady 162 gr HPBT and the Sierra 168 gr MK. I tested all three bullets for accuracy and the two match bullets were dead even with no advantage to either. The Nosler partition accuracy was the usual 1+ MOA. So I soaked some bundles of old phone books and newspapers in water with the very poor results of getting them wet around the edge but not in the middle.
On Saturday, I took the newspapers and placed them at 100 yards and fired three bullets from each of the three candidate bullets. I then analyzed the wound channels and measured penetration depth and weighed the retained mass.
The Hornady 162s had very little mass in any one piece but quite a collection of pieces. The Sierras were confusing as some times there was a big piece of jacket and sometimes there was not. The Noslers always had the rear partition intact. In terms of penetration the Hornady would penetrate about 11-12 inches and the Sierra about 12 inches and the Nosler about 13 inches. The peculiar observation that I did not at that time understand was that the Hornady bullet fragments were always encased in a Fifty cent sized wad of paper and it was this wad of paper that was penetrating through the rest of the paper. In other words the bullet would explode upon impact and punch out a big wad of paper right at the surface of the stack and the "wad encasing the bullet fragments" would then penetrate. In real life, animal skin and muscle will not create a wad to encase the fragments and the fragments will quickly lose momentum and come to a stop. The importance of this obscure information became apparent to me once I used the 162 gr HPBT on animals.
While I might not always be right, I am certainly never wrong. I conclude that it is probably important to actually know something about some things some of the time but not absolutely necessary.
Back in the year of our lord nineteen hundred and seventy eight, having a full load of knowledge about rifles and bullets, I set about to determine what would be a good long range 7mm elk bullet. I chose two bullets with high BCs and one bullet with known penetration ability (160 grain Nosler partition). The two high BC bullets were the Hornady 162 gr HPBT and the Sierra 168 gr MK. I tested all three bullets for accuracy and the two match bullets were dead even with no advantage to either. The Nosler partition accuracy was the usual 1+ MOA. So I soaked some bundles of old phone books and newspapers in water with the very poor results of getting them wet around the edge but not in the middle.
On Saturday, I took the newspapers and placed them at 100 yards and fired three bullets from each of the three candidate bullets. I then analyzed the wound channels and measured penetration depth and weighed the retained mass.
The Hornady 162s had very little mass in any one piece but quite a collection of pieces. The Sierras were confusing as some times there was a big piece of jacket and sometimes there was not. The Noslers always had the rear partition intact. In terms of penetration the Hornady would penetrate about 11-12 inches and the Sierra about 12 inches and the Nosler about 13 inches. The peculiar observation that I did not at that time understand was that the Hornady bullet fragments were always encased in a Fifty cent sized wad of paper and it was this wad of paper that was penetrating through the rest of the paper. In other words the bullet would explode upon impact and punch out a big wad of paper right at the surface of the stack and the "wad encasing the bullet fragments" would then penetrate. In real life, animal skin and muscle will not create a wad to encase the fragments and the fragments will quickly lose momentum and come to a stop. The importance of this obscure information became apparent to me once I used the 162 gr HPBT on animals.
While I might not always be right, I am certainly never wrong. I conclude that it is probably important to actually know something about some things some of the time but not absolutely necessary.
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Guy M
Well-Known Member
Alrighty then!
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Guy, my post had nothing to do with yours nor was it in response to yours. It was just a small piece of information for Ian and others to remember when interpreting the results. All I am saying is that sometimes it is helpful to actually know something about penetration tests before running them.
Sorry, if them being close together gave the wrong appearance.
Sorry, if them being close together gave the wrong appearance.
BuffloBob
So do you feel that Ian and others who try to draw results from bullet testing in paper or water... are not getting useful information?
I have done quite a bit of very unofficial bullet testing and feel that some very useful conclusions can be reached about how a bullet will perform. The consistency of opening and not completely failing or flattening to much will tell you a lot about how well it will hold together on an animal. Real animal testing is still by far the best but I feel better about seeing how a bullet performs on h2o ... before taking it in the field. Dean
So do you feel that Ian and others who try to draw results from bullet testing in paper or water... are not getting useful information?
I have done quite a bit of very unofficial bullet testing and feel that some very useful conclusions can be reached about how a bullet will perform. The consistency of opening and not completely failing or flattening to much will tell you a lot about how well it will hold together on an animal. Real animal testing is still by far the best but I feel better about seeing how a bullet performs on h2o ... before taking it in the field. Dean
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
There is an old Kenny Rogers song "The Gambler".
It has this line
In my whole post there is one piece of information that a person might not already know and find useful to know.
It has this line
In my whole post there is one piece of information that a person might not already know and find useful to know.
Guy M
Well-Known Member
BuffaloBob - naw, my poor tired ol' gray matter was just trying to get a handle on all that you had to say!
I just shoot 'em into water jugs and see how far they go & what they look like afterwards. Then I try to go nail an obliging critter with 'em. I sure shot a lot of critters long before I started getting interested in what the bullets looked like after they hit... Now I have something fun & interesting to do with all those milk jugs the kids go through!
Regards, Guy
I just shoot 'em into water jugs and see how far they go & what they look like afterwards. Then I try to go nail an obliging critter with 'em. I sure shot a lot of critters long before I started getting interested in what the bullets looked like after they hit... Now I have something fun & interesting to do with all those milk jugs the kids go through!
Regards, Guy
Guy M
Well-Known Member
Just for the heck of it, here's a 100 grain Barnes TSX slammed into water jugs at 20 yards, with a 3277 fps mv from my .25-06 Remington.
The main slug was captured in the 7th water jug and weighed 67 grains. The petals broke off and were found in the 4th water jug. All three pieces together weighed a full 100 grains. I've taken two mule deer bucks with these 100 gr Barnes TSX bullets and in both cases they fully penetrated. Deer were both down and dead instantly too. I think the water jugs did a fair job of predicting that this bullet would offer good penetration as well as expansion, which is exactly what I observed on the two deer I've shot with it. BTW - was unable to recover a bullet from either deer, as both were pass-through shots.
Regards, Guy
Akbushape
Active Member
I'm new to this site, just stumbled across it by accident. I've been hunting a
long time but have always felt closer is better, until recently. Now I'm getting
interested in long range capabilities.
Started out loading a lot of nosler partitions and the more I shot them the less
impressed I was. Tried a few others before settling on the speer spirepoints.
(The noslers work okay on deer but don't cut it on moose and bear).
Question for Ian: (providing he survived Africa) What did you make of the bonded bullets you tested? Did they mushroom OK and how was retained
bullet weight?
I just picked up some Federal fusion 150 gr in 300 win mag and have been dieing to try them out, but not enough to try it at 10 below. (wimping out).
Besides the phone books would freeze solid
GuyM , Thanks for the photo and info on the Barnes TSX. That's another
interesting bullet I haven't tried. Have been a little skeptical about the solid
copper aspect.
long time but have always felt closer is better, until recently. Now I'm getting
interested in long range capabilities.
Started out loading a lot of nosler partitions and the more I shot them the less
impressed I was. Tried a few others before settling on the speer spirepoints.
(The noslers work okay on deer but don't cut it on moose and bear).
Question for Ian: (providing he survived Africa) What did you make of the bonded bullets you tested? Did they mushroom OK and how was retained
bullet weight?
I just picked up some Federal fusion 150 gr in 300 win mag and have been dieing to try them out, but not enough to try it at 10 below. (wimping out).
Besides the phone books would freeze solid
GuyM , Thanks for the photo and info on the Barnes TSX. That's another
interesting bullet I haven't tried. Have been a little skeptical about the solid
copper aspect.
